Something I realised after I really started playing my yamaha p-250 and getting serious about the piano (recently) was that the PMI samples sound... well, not "bad", but not very real, or responds extremely differently than say an upright piano.
perhaps it's the hammered action on the p-250, but even though I'm guessing the p-250's sample playback is much simpler than kontakt, it feels and sounds more realistic.
Also, it seems like some of the PMI stuff have phase issues, either with tuning or the recording, since there are some notes in there that suddenly jump out, or seem to fall back in the mix of sounds. It's a little upsetting since I used to think PMI kicked axx.
-edit:
alright, I went back and checked out their kontakt2 stuff, and they seem to sound much better.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2006-09-30 08:07 ]</font>
PMI pianos sound like crap to me these days
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kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
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right, the VSTi's are a step forward in terms of technology, I just don't get why a simple rompler plays and feels much more like the real thing.. Like, it maybe looping and sound inferior to the big libraries, but just that it "feels" right.
or maybe it's a matter of understanding how the samples are meant to be used? the p-250 samples are obviously meant to be played back as "straight from the soundboard" type sounds, and then the PMI sounds are a bit more "we recorded one in a room" type sound. So with the PMI stuff, it sounds like you're listening to a recorded piano, where as with the p-250 is sounds like you're sitting infront of one.
but again, I guess PMI made alot of improvements with the newer versions that have sympathetic resonance and the whole gang of newer effects. So the newer ones may respond differently.
maybe p-250 has some of these cool effects built in? not really sure exactly how advanced modern romplers are.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2006-09-30 09:22 ]</font>
or maybe it's a matter of understanding how the samples are meant to be used? the p-250 samples are obviously meant to be played back as "straight from the soundboard" type sounds, and then the PMI sounds are a bit more "we recorded one in a room" type sound. So with the PMI stuff, it sounds like you're listening to a recorded piano, where as with the p-250 is sounds like you're sitting infront of one.
but again, I guess PMI made alot of improvements with the newer versions that have sympathetic resonance and the whole gang of newer effects. So the newer ones may respond differently.
maybe p-250 has some of these cool effects built in? not really sure exactly how advanced modern romplers are.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2006-09-30 09:22 ]</font>
I have a large library of GS3 Orchestra pianos, some for classical, jazz, R&B, and even a great Honky Tonk Upright from Vintaudio. I've been playing piano since I was 5, and even had a Helpenstill Upright w/ pick ups for live use. It wasn't until I heard GS3 Orchestra w/ pedal up, and down resonance that I finally had a way to make all my sampled pianos sound very realistic with Gigapulse. This is not everybody's favorite sampler, but I have heard all the VST's, and other sampler programs, and depending on how much piano playing you are really into, this is now an app. that satisfies me with acoustic instruments, especially the pianos. The other big benefit is the flawless driver implentation with SFP. I am trying to leave my hardware sequencer for a VST app now, for I have a new Intel Core 2 Duo DAW w/ 45 DSP's, and Gigastudio has finally made the move to VST. If it has all the beauty of sound that GS3 has, this might be up your alley. Up in NYC you can play a demo of GS3 at Sam Ash. Just make sure you buy a better piano sample than the Grand which comes with GS3, as I find it unusable for my work, but it shows how the convolution pedal up, and downs enhance it's realism greatly.
This is OT but Ken, you like orchestral samples. Did you see this?
Steinberg HALion Symponic Orchestra
http://www.steinberg.net/667+M52087573ab0.html
Steinberg HALion Symponic Orchestra
http://www.steinberg.net/667+M52087573ab0.html
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kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
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so jimmy, you're saying that a good sample lib + convolution from gs3 is a good combo? Basically, I'm not trying to find the "ultimate" vst piano, just something that doesn't sound and feel like a toy piano. If it's close to, or on par with a p-250, I'm cool with it.
I'm probably going to check out PMI's hybrid piano since it's really cheap and basically does a "sampled pieces of piano mechanics separately - and threw it into some convolution" gig. Have you tried this one?
braincell-> well, I kind of have mixed feelings about halion right now, and maybe for orchestration in general. Ever since I had the door slammed shut on me by the fxxk face composition professor during my 1 semester master's program, I've sort been having some confidence issues I think.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2006-10-01 08:58 ]</font>
I'm probably going to check out PMI's hybrid piano since it's really cheap and basically does a "sampled pieces of piano mechanics separately - and threw it into some convolution" gig. Have you tried this one?
braincell-> well, I kind of have mixed feelings about halion right now, and maybe for orchestration in general. Ever since I had the door slammed shut on me by the fxxk face composition professor during my 1 semester master's program, I've sort been having some confidence issues I think.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2006-10-01 08:58 ]</font>
To tell the truth, I am pianod out, as I had purchased the pianos prior to upgrading to GS3 Orchestra. Just find one you like, but I stand by opinion of the pedal up and down GigaPulsa models, as they will make a so-so piano really come to life. You actually hear the pedals shifting the strings over the harp, it is quite unique. With all of the expensive money I spent on the collection I have, my favorites are the 2 from Vintaudio, as the Upright Clinton is just perfect for jamming with musicians as the upper registers cut through nicely, while the left handed comps are glued together perfectly. As far as singing/piano ala. solo work, the Vintaudio Yamaha C7 is beautiful IMO. Funny these 2 DVD's from Vintaudio are the cheapest. But your ears will tell you what's best. It really was the string resonance pedal models that finally made me comfortable playing piano solo, or w/ a group. If you are looking for an all in 1 solution for gigging though, I found that the Yamaha S90 had a really nice piano feel and sound for being a generic instrument. The EP's are so cheezy though. But you guys know I am a spoiled musician who has owned Rhodes, B3, etc. I am very picky. But after youv'e played as many gigs as I have, having the perfect emulations is a must. I feel like I have upgraded to a better, smaller rig, instead of settling for weak emulations like I heard when I first starting shopping with VST's and such. I will hopefully quit spending money after I get the VST host, and GVI ( giga VSTi'd ). But I'm sure I will hear something else I just have to have. As we are all sick men.
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Nestor
- Posts: 6688
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I have heard thousands of pianos in every possible format: standalone, VST, Akai, hardware emulations, Romplers, etc., etc., etc., and found a fearly few of them to be really useful, but only if you know and are clear about the kind of music you want to do with them.
Sometimes it is difficult to say that a piano is “bad” or “good”, until you play it in its right context. The same happens with absolutely any other sounds that you may listen to, separately. We should never listen to sounds separately when we need a serious “judgment” to buy an instrument, or to create the basics of a production, unless you need to play this instrument by itself in a bar for instance, but I know it is not the case of most of us here.
One of the common things I would do to test any given sound, is to give it the context I think I will be using it for with some MIDI background orchestration. Let say I have five instrument: bass, guitar, drum, a pad and a piano, well, I will build a few pieces of MIDI orchestration and will put them to play for me, changing the pianos I want to hear, to compare them to each other "in action”. Then I hear some of the best mixes in the world for me, to have a strong positive reference. Why not try the instruments by themselves? Because the more you try them separate from their musical orchestral context, the more confused your ear gets.
There is a scientific background behind it, quite simple, related to the way our senses perceive the outer world, and to the way they work. Have you tried to taste salt by itself? You will probably judge it as “bad”, but when you add it to prepared cooked food there is nothing in the world better than some amount of salt to give the whole thing a fabulous taste. The same happens with sour, hot and sweet if you taste them by themselves, they will be soon disgusting to you and judged as being "bad". But this tastes used in their right context, make food taste like heaven!
If you were to expose your eyes to an absolutely red room for about two hours, being the light, floor, ceiling and walls of an intense red colour, and then you come out of the room to try to appreciate some Renacentist art work full of colours, you’ll have big troubles to find out what is what, and your “light colours impressions" will be so mixed, that you will judge those pieces of art in a completely wrong way.
When you try an instrument, it is good to try it immediately with some context, and probably AFTER this, try the instrument by itself, totally the opposite of what we currently do.
There are several instruments from Steinberg for instance, that many people consider to be quite bad sounding, or not “inspiring” they say, but I have found that their instruments are worked to be used in context only, not by themselves, and so people don't find them as atractive as other much less proffesional sounding intruments for orchestral work.
You'll understand me better:
In the other side, I have played some huge, immense pianos that would fill up the entire shop I was playing in, everybody around would say: “wow, what a Piano, it’s gorgeous!” under the spell of a wrong judment, because they were not listening at it in CONTEXT with other instruments, which will probably have given them a completely different impression. This piano was in fact useless when working in a studio, because it didn't sit well in any orchestral-like background song, it was sort of an egoist piano let say.
We have all been surprised when finding that a “crapy shit” sound fitted so very well in one of our mixes... you would have never thought of using such an (apparently) “bad” sound if you had heard it by itself, it was just terrible! Well, this is a big mistake that is so very often done by composers, we need to never again try instruments by themselves, but in context, otherwise you will keep buying something that is not what you were expecting to get, you will spend lost of hard earned money and finally, get totaly frustrated.
The search for sounds is a never ending journey for most people. I personally have ended this journey (in a way), years and years ago, after a super interesting conversation I had with Subhuman, one of our most active partners here in the Z, no longer with us, and I started a different journey, the one of “CONTEXT INSTRUMENTS”.
This bad journey finished when I got those terribly, painful and extremely frustrating days out of my compositions forever, when I usually would squander about 6 or more hours of my day searching for sounds instate of composing, and I was nevertheless full of enthusiasm! How can it be, you are full of enthusiasm and nothing happens, something is wrong! This happened because I would try so hard to find a “first isolated instrument” that would please me, then a “second isolated instrument” that would please me, using a completely wrong path! Z firneds, don't get into the mistake I did for such a long time! When I finished the selection of a few of them, they had nothing to do with each other; I couldn’t start a song under this condition. Did I lack instruments, synths, power, EQs, samples, new stuff? Absolutely no! Unfortunately, the search had to start over and over again, and of course, the bird of inspiration was fed up and said to me: “Ok man, that’s enough, I came here to have some fun with you, to play with you and enjoy ourselves, but the only thing you keep doing is ignoring me and pressing buttons like a mad man, using your mouse and pressing the keys of your keyboard with all these little bits of indifferent music that slowly gest me down, I prefer to go for a nice fly by myself, ciao!”. Then I swich my all powerful system off with its modular synths and extremely powerful instruments... off my amp... off my hardware instruments... and then go bed believing it was my fault, but it was not me, or the bird of inspiration, but the wrong technique I used!
I have heard constantly, through the years in the Z forum, things like this: “Well, I don’t know what is going on with me, but when I sit and try to compose, nothing comes up, I am full of enthusiasm but nothing happens what a freak I am”. This will not happen anymore if you were to:
ALWAYS CHOOSE YOUR INSTRUMENTS IN CONTEXT WITH OTHER INSTRUMENTS, AND NEVER EVER BY THEMSELVES
I assure all of you Z friends, composers alike, that you can achieve a much creative journey trying your sounds in “context” instate of searching through your precious hours, instruments and presets that will never mean anything by themselves, and least of all when put together, becuase you have searched them separately!
A big question: Which should so be my first choice, how do I start, if I have no instruments formerly chosen? Good question! And the answer to this question is get some of your preferred pieces of music in high quality wav format, those songs you think are the rules of what you want to achieve: perfect mixing, perfect balance, perfect panning, and of course, perfect instrument mixes and listen to them with close attention for about one hour. Then, as you are starting to get sets of instruments that suite your style and needs, build small MIDI orchestrations ready to welcome a particular instrument. For instance, if you have, let say, 10 songs already build, do some critic selections where the instrument you’ll try out, will be tasted. If it was a bass, then of course, you’ll need to remove the bass you have right now and replace it for the new bass you want to try out. With that simple technique, try all the bass sounds you want to try, and chose one, and so on, in the context of your MIDI orchestration.
I guaranty you the following if you use this simple technique:
1- Light-speed instrument selection process
2- The bird of inspiration just besides you, and happy!
3- Much more music every week, every month, every year
4- A tremendous satisfaction to your worthy time
5- Intelligent use of your gear, software and energy
Good composing in the context of living sounds...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2006-10-01 11:43 ]</font>
Sometimes it is difficult to say that a piano is “bad” or “good”, until you play it in its right context. The same happens with absolutely any other sounds that you may listen to, separately. We should never listen to sounds separately when we need a serious “judgment” to buy an instrument, or to create the basics of a production, unless you need to play this instrument by itself in a bar for instance, but I know it is not the case of most of us here.
One of the common things I would do to test any given sound, is to give it the context I think I will be using it for with some MIDI background orchestration. Let say I have five instrument: bass, guitar, drum, a pad and a piano, well, I will build a few pieces of MIDI orchestration and will put them to play for me, changing the pianos I want to hear, to compare them to each other "in action”. Then I hear some of the best mixes in the world for me, to have a strong positive reference. Why not try the instruments by themselves? Because the more you try them separate from their musical orchestral context, the more confused your ear gets.
There is a scientific background behind it, quite simple, related to the way our senses perceive the outer world, and to the way they work. Have you tried to taste salt by itself? You will probably judge it as “bad”, but when you add it to prepared cooked food there is nothing in the world better than some amount of salt to give the whole thing a fabulous taste. The same happens with sour, hot and sweet if you taste them by themselves, they will be soon disgusting to you and judged as being "bad". But this tastes used in their right context, make food taste like heaven!
If you were to expose your eyes to an absolutely red room for about two hours, being the light, floor, ceiling and walls of an intense red colour, and then you come out of the room to try to appreciate some Renacentist art work full of colours, you’ll have big troubles to find out what is what, and your “light colours impressions" will be so mixed, that you will judge those pieces of art in a completely wrong way.
When you try an instrument, it is good to try it immediately with some context, and probably AFTER this, try the instrument by itself, totally the opposite of what we currently do.
There are several instruments from Steinberg for instance, that many people consider to be quite bad sounding, or not “inspiring” they say, but I have found that their instruments are worked to be used in context only, not by themselves, and so people don't find them as atractive as other much less proffesional sounding intruments for orchestral work.
You'll understand me better:
In the other side, I have played some huge, immense pianos that would fill up the entire shop I was playing in, everybody around would say: “wow, what a Piano, it’s gorgeous!” under the spell of a wrong judment, because they were not listening at it in CONTEXT with other instruments, which will probably have given them a completely different impression. This piano was in fact useless when working in a studio, because it didn't sit well in any orchestral-like background song, it was sort of an egoist piano let say.
We have all been surprised when finding that a “crapy shit” sound fitted so very well in one of our mixes... you would have never thought of using such an (apparently) “bad” sound if you had heard it by itself, it was just terrible! Well, this is a big mistake that is so very often done by composers, we need to never again try instruments by themselves, but in context, otherwise you will keep buying something that is not what you were expecting to get, you will spend lost of hard earned money and finally, get totaly frustrated.
The search for sounds is a never ending journey for most people. I personally have ended this journey (in a way), years and years ago, after a super interesting conversation I had with Subhuman, one of our most active partners here in the Z, no longer with us, and I started a different journey, the one of “CONTEXT INSTRUMENTS”.
This bad journey finished when I got those terribly, painful and extremely frustrating days out of my compositions forever, when I usually would squander about 6 or more hours of my day searching for sounds instate of composing, and I was nevertheless full of enthusiasm! How can it be, you are full of enthusiasm and nothing happens, something is wrong! This happened because I would try so hard to find a “first isolated instrument” that would please me, then a “second isolated instrument” that would please me, using a completely wrong path! Z firneds, don't get into the mistake I did for such a long time! When I finished the selection of a few of them, they had nothing to do with each other; I couldn’t start a song under this condition. Did I lack instruments, synths, power, EQs, samples, new stuff? Absolutely no! Unfortunately, the search had to start over and over again, and of course, the bird of inspiration was fed up and said to me: “Ok man, that’s enough, I came here to have some fun with you, to play with you and enjoy ourselves, but the only thing you keep doing is ignoring me and pressing buttons like a mad man, using your mouse and pressing the keys of your keyboard with all these little bits of indifferent music that slowly gest me down, I prefer to go for a nice fly by myself, ciao!”. Then I swich my all powerful system off with its modular synths and extremely powerful instruments... off my amp... off my hardware instruments... and then go bed believing it was my fault, but it was not me, or the bird of inspiration, but the wrong technique I used!
I have heard constantly, through the years in the Z forum, things like this: “Well, I don’t know what is going on with me, but when I sit and try to compose, nothing comes up, I am full of enthusiasm but nothing happens what a freak I am”. This will not happen anymore if you were to:
ALWAYS CHOOSE YOUR INSTRUMENTS IN CONTEXT WITH OTHER INSTRUMENTS, AND NEVER EVER BY THEMSELVES
I assure all of you Z friends, composers alike, that you can achieve a much creative journey trying your sounds in “context” instate of searching through your precious hours, instruments and presets that will never mean anything by themselves, and least of all when put together, becuase you have searched them separately!
A big question: Which should so be my first choice, how do I start, if I have no instruments formerly chosen? Good question! And the answer to this question is get some of your preferred pieces of music in high quality wav format, those songs you think are the rules of what you want to achieve: perfect mixing, perfect balance, perfect panning, and of course, perfect instrument mixes and listen to them with close attention for about one hour. Then, as you are starting to get sets of instruments that suite your style and needs, build small MIDI orchestrations ready to welcome a particular instrument. For instance, if you have, let say, 10 songs already build, do some critic selections where the instrument you’ll try out, will be tasted. If it was a bass, then of course, you’ll need to remove the bass you have right now and replace it for the new bass you want to try out. With that simple technique, try all the bass sounds you want to try, and chose one, and so on, in the context of your MIDI orchestration.
I guaranty you the following if you use this simple technique:
1- Light-speed instrument selection process
2- The bird of inspiration just besides you, and happy!
3- Much more music every week, every month, every year
4- A tremendous satisfaction to your worthy time
5- Intelligent use of your gear, software and energy
Good composing in the context of living sounds...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Nestor on 2006-10-01 11:43 ]</font>
What Nestor says is true but not always. I do a lot of sound research and creation when I want to take a break from my composition and big projects. It's like a leisure time for me, where I sit at my workstation without knowing which sound I'll make, not precisely at least... I've found many interesting sounds and surprisingly enough, they often fit in a later composition. It takes some tweakings for sure, sometimes a lot of work to have everything blend together, but in the end it works!
I think that creation can works in any imaginable order as well as all at once, time has no grip on art!
Cheers!
I think that creation can works in any imaginable order as well as all at once, time has no grip on art!
Cheers!