CW VA synths behave weird (noise, polyphonic mode)

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:11 am

CW synths behave very un-musical when patches using "noise" are played polyphonically.

I mean those overlay/cancellation/phasing type of sound. I noticed this with Minimax, Pro~One, Profit-5, Prodyssey.

I think, once again, the problem here is how CW approaches polyphony in it's VA devices: They make 1:1 clones of one (monophonic) modeled voice.

Most obvious example here is Profit-5 (Pro~12), which is modeled after a real polyphonic synth and should thus behave as such.

AFAIK, technically one(!) noise generator is proportionally routed into each poliphonic voice on analog synths. Thus no ugly cancellation and no unproportional levelling problems.

Why is this so hard to implement on a CW device?

kybernaut_01

P.S.: I'm not an happy owner of a real Prophet-5. So if anything outlined here is wrong, please correct me!

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:50 am

maybe it was simply overlooked ?

good point - you probably mean that the noise either adds up or subtracts overproportionally due to the same copy applied to all voices.

cheers, Tom

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:59 am

Yes, one thing is the level. The other is color of the sound that changes after every keystroke (comb filtering...)

cheers,

kybernaut

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:17 am

This is usually fixed in the Modular or SDK by setting the noise source to be monophonic, but unfortunately you can't do that in the pre-set synths. Don't know why CW didn't do it themselves, because these devices were made in the SDK.

Shayne

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:33 pm

To handle distorted or noisy sounds polyphonic is a difficult thing. Many years ago I learned from a guitarist, that thirds or sixths on a distorted guitar don't sound very well. I checked it - he is right. Only monophonic solos or power chords are recommended. Other intervals or full harmonies(incl. dissonances) may cause some special and strange effects, in most cases they are unwanted.
Maybe this is similar to your problem. If you take a noisy preset to make harmonies, then turn back the noise osc level - perhaps you should connect it with a MIDI controller?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:37 pm

On 2006-01-01 06:59, kybernaut_01 wrote:
...The other is color of the sound that changes after every keystroke (comb filtering...)
...

well, if the noise shows a comb filtering effect then there must be a small time displacement on the 'per-voice-copies' of the single noise source.
whatever that means...

cheers, tom

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:07 pm

On 2006-01-01 14:37, astroman wrote:

well, if the noise shows a comb filtering effect then there must be a small time displacement on the 'per-voice-copies' of the single noise source.
whatever that means...

cheers, tom

Yes, something along these lines. Very strange indeed. This comb filtering effect occurs whenever you play polyphonic lines on the said CW devices... And also, when you switch the Profit-5 into unison mode.

@Herr Voigt: I know what you mean. But I refer more to how analog synths handle the "Noise" source - and how Creamware does it...

[ This Message was edited by: kybernaut_01 on 2006-01-01 15:10 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 9:28 pm

oops - sorry for messing things further and not naming the source immediately.
Of course it is a time shift that causes the 'comb filtering' - and it's absolutely regular, as it's... the fx unit

go to the fx page (in the profit), switch it off and it will sound as analog as you expect it

cheers, tom

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:07 am

On 2006-01-01 21:28, astroman wrote:
go to the fx page (in the profit), switch it off and it will sound as analog as you expect it

Yawn ...

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:17 pm

I have no level or cancellation problems, let alone comb like effects when the FX section is off
What's the point that I miss ?

curious, Tom

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:44 pm

On 2006-01-02 16:17, astroman wrote:
What's the point that I miss ?

curious, Tom

Hi Tom. Mine sounds like that (and there is definately some comb filtering going on):

http://home.arcor.de/kybernaut_01/minimax_noise.wav
http://home.arcor.de/kybernaut_01/profit_noise.wav

cheers,

kybernaut

Shayne White · Post by **Shayne White** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:15 pm

Yeah, that's definitely because the noise is polyphonic. There's nothing you can do about it.

Perhaps you could write to CWA and ask them to fix it? It should be an easy thing to do on their part. It definitely should be fixed in the ASB boxes.

I wonder how Arturia's stuff behaves? I don't often use noise sources so I've never thought about it. Next time I'm in my studio I'll check it out.

Shayne

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 2:43 am

it sounds as if the keytracking og the filter is on, isn't it ?

rounser · Post by **rounser** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:03 am

What's a power chord? Octaving, as in C2 C3 C4?

Post by **hubird** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 3:54 am

sexeless, no (minor or major) third

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:40 am

On 2006-01-03 02:43, astroman wrote:
it sounds as if the keytracking og the filter is on, isn't it ?

astroman, I'm well able to press an FX bypass button and to get the influence of a filter out of the way, thank you

The easiest way would be to try it yourself. If it sounds different on your system, it can still be a NOAH vs Scope difference.

best,

kybernaut

P.S. BTW. Keytracking on a lowpass filter isn't able to tear a notch at 2.6 kHz...

[ This Message was edited by: kybernaut_01 on 2006-01-03 04:54 ]

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:04 am

On 2006-01-03 04:40, kybernaut_01 wrote:
...The easiest way would be to try it yourself...

so what do you think my impression is from ?

I HAVE done exactly that and I do get exactly the sound of your example WITH filter keytrack on my own copy of Profit5.

maybe you should have posted your preconditions more precisely ?
you could have mentioned that the obvious suspects as delay fx and keytrack have been rulked out and that you write about the NOAH version.
what about your own theories regarding CWA's abilities how to implement analog stuff right ?
cheers, Tom

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 5:26 am

On 2006-01-03 05:04, astroman wrote:
you could have mentioned that the obvious suspects as delay fx and keytrack have been rulked out and that you write about the NOAH version.

Sorry, thought that this would be self-explanatory. And differences between NOAH and Scope versions of these synths do not exist, as far as my experience goes.

what about your own theories regarding CWA's abilities how to implement analog stuff right ?

Go and check an arbitrary analog polysynth of your choice.

Another thing is the phase-locked oscillators in CW devices. There is no way, that two different analog oscillator circuits do not drift in some way.

The third issue (which is not limited to polyphonic CW synth) is the lack of typical attack behaviour. Has been critisized by "Keyboards" more than one time (Minimax).

cheers,

kybernaut

[ This Message was edited by: kybernaut_01 on 2006-01-03 05:48 ]

johnbowen · Post by **johnbowen** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 4:53 pm

Hi list,

the polyphonic/monophonic noise issue is something the designer of the synth can set. For some of my synths, I put a switch in to choose, but usually I make it a mono noise signal, since I personally prefer not to have the 'comb filter' effect when I play polyphonically.

kybernaut_01 · Post by **kybernaut_01** » Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:06 am

So if this can be set by the synth designer, as Shayne White and John are pointing out, I'm really wondering why CW decided to implement it the way they did.

It must be a rather concious decision as it has been done that way on all their VA devices. But why? It sounds unmusical and is not true to the original hardware.

kybernaut_01

P.S. I will will send email to CW. Let's see if I get an answer.