New Apple Powermacs -- no PCI

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:09 am

On 2005-10-19 20:54, braincell wrote:
I guess we'll have to keep an old computer. I use my laptop most of the time these days.

Moved my scope cards into a 2nd box over a year ago now. While this isn't as elegant for those who are mixing entirely in Scope (I mix in analog) I have to say for my needs this really opened up the power of my Creamware cards for more specific tasks.

However, I definately agree the Scope line won't be nearly as viable for NEW users if its required to run it in a 2nd PC (changes the nature of the 'soundcard' aspect quite a bit) even if this is a great way for people who already own the cards to continue to leverage the investment and use the Scope tools they know & love. Its obvious that *eventually* Creamware will need a new product, but is the time right NOW?

Keep in mind though that PCI-X was nowhere near *new* when Apple decided to incorporate it, it just wasn't found outside of server class motherboards before then. It is a shame that voltage conversion for our boards isn't as straightforward as it is for other audio card makers, but PCI-X on Apple definately didn't "kill" Scope, and now PCI-e...

The only stated use for the extra slots on Apple's site is to allow the installation of "a PCI Express graphics card in any PCI Express slot — enabling a single Power Mac G5 to support four, six, or even eight displays." Digidesign HD is nowhere near the price of a Scope card (or three), so suggesting that since they have gone PCI-e so must Creamware is a flawed argument. People who purchase new HD systems tend to invest in an ENTIRE system at once. And while there are gigabit networking PCI-e adaptors and SATA & SCSI RAID PCI-e adaptors on the market, this is hardly something intended for mainstream or even (DAW-class) workstation consumption so it doesn't really point to mainstream adoption yet.

Its possible that Apple intended to future-proof current Powermacs but I consider it more likely that their X-Serve boxes are selling well enough to warrant a move from PCI-X to PCI-e because it will make a difference in the corporate server market. Having a shared motherboard layout across the entire Powermac & X-Serve line makes too much sense financially. The statements in this thread stating that Jobs & Co. intend the 'Powermac' user to rely on networking, firewire and usb2 for their expansion 'card' needs seem right on the mark to me. They'd rather you build a Logic-node network than invest in Creamware (or Powercore)...

In my opinion, we'll have to wait for a few more ASB boxes to enter the market, and a few financial cycles to occur before we'll see hints of whatever exists in Creamware's R&D office. Even if they do have working prototypes at the moment, given another few years of R&D things could change quite a bit both for Creamware's offering(s) and for the general lay of the computing world.

edmann · Post by **edmann** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:53 am

IMO the whole Apple thing has been in the process of dying for a while now...actually beginning with OSX. I was a die-hard apple fan - now I would never ever purchase one again. It is just a vibe thing - they are manipultaing their customer base bigtime - many follow along just because of brand name, and they know that. I am no PC fan either - but with XP I softened a lot on that. Apple is a gadget company that's keeps its customers in a form of kidnap as long as anyone wants to play along (which is often for good reason - to protect their recent large investment in apple product). When you have (1) company that is the sole source of both the hardware and OS - that is bad news., as in this PCI/no PCI thread. At least in Windows one has a huge variety of manufacturer options.

1 example really stuck out for me last year when apple staged a joint effor with pepsi cola to sell their pods...jesus god rewind back to those 1984 "introduce the apple.we are not part oif the system" ads and then FF to the obesity epidemic that is well documented with high fructose cord syrup being sighted as the primary culprit (and primary calorie ingrediant in pepsi)

perhaps you get the picture - I certainly do.

(this is written on a mac g4 in OS 9.2.2, housing a SCOPe card)

best wishes

Ed

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:07 pm

I certainly do remember those ads from 84 and in fact it was that cute little beige box that dragged me into the Apple business.
I've sold and supported Macs for > 10 years until I switched to developement and freelance consulting services - still 90% Apple stuff.

I kind of agree with your basic sentiments, but it is completely beyond any question that this company wouldn't exist anymore (in competetive form) if they'd kept their old strategy.

There was a time Apple pumped 30% of their revenues into R&D, and it was the time we made (at least) a 30% profit with each Apple system, my personal share on each sale was 10%.
Go ask your next PC dealer, afaik today they have about 8% average...
Times (and customers) have changed, as the Hartmann story shows there's neither support for quality nor respect for outstanding creativity.

It's not Apple but those with the wallet who finally define a product philosophy.
Bill Gates (w. heritage from a business home) knew this from the beginning - Steve Jobs had to learn it, partially the hard way.

In the early 90s we've discussed it up and down with top executives from both Apple and customers and noone had a clue why such a superior product had such horrible sales in the corporate domain.

Today I know it... (or at least I guess)
Macs were as you liked them - easy to understand, reliable, almost no education and service required. The Intel world suffered under Windows 3...

But would you expect that an executive from a corporate IT department supports a system that makes 90% of his (or her) staff superfluous ?
THAT's the true story behind Apple's early financial 'problems', which were not exactly frightening, but at least present to a degree.

I'm not writing stories here - we never sold any courses to our customers (one of the sales arguments was that no more than a couple of hours training on the job per employe would be required) and we did support at least 150 systems in a radius of 30 miles with just 2 support people, no kidding.

honestly, the majority of customers doesn't even want a solution - they only need someone who listens to them, shares their sentiments and gives them some feeling of importance or power - THEN they'll sign any contract you present to them...
it's that simple and that stupid

on the other hand I recently heard that (a significant part of) one of the local newspapers is still produced on Macs running OS-7 (!)
and I might add that I just aquired an ASUS TUSL2-C Intel815 board as it runs the old Pulsars best.
The latest isn't always the greatest and 'true' innovations are completely out of sight imho.

nevertheless Apple did a remarkable job on it's version of a 'unix-like' OS.
Simple enough for the average user and enough complexity to make the consultants happy - with growing demands on hardware resources to keep the factory running...

cheers, Tom

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:22 am

On 2005-10-28 15:07, astroman wrote:
on the other hand I recently heard that (a significant part of) one of the local newspapers is still produced on Macs running OS-7 (!)
and I might add that I just aquired an ASUS TUSL2-C Intel815 board as it runs the old Pulsars best.

Been trying to locate one for under $80 for a while now.... (they're all overpriced on ebay due to people needing replacements for legacy systems). I'd rather keep my Scope cards on that than a P4 system anyday (since my scope box is secondary to my main DAW).

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:16 am

I paid 60 Euro including 192 MB, Celeron 1200 and a ATI Rage MB...

but while looking for it on eBay I repeatingly found the same bidders on whatever offer included THAT mobo

cheers, Tom

edmann · Post by **edmann** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:19 am

On 2005-10-28 15:07, astroman wrote:
...Steve Jobs had to learn it, partially the hard way.

thanks Tom great post - but IMO Billionaire Jobs has learned nothing the hard way...he is wealthy beyond decription from his Apple exploits. We, as apple-consumers have however learned many lessons the hard way. I guess the same is true for Wintel users.

Right now I would much rather invest time and money in PC and XP...I see people investing hugely in apple product and repurchasing all their hard/software just so they can say they work in OSX...which requires so much more power than OS9 did just to do the same thing...to me it is such an obvious joke, I cannot believe that people actually buy into it. It reminds me of the hamsters in the Digidesign run-wheel.

just one user's opinion - and I could be wrong.

Freedom, say I!

respect

EM

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:50 pm

On 2005-10-29 02:16, astroman wrote:
I paid 60 Euro including 192 MB, Celeron 1200 and a ATI Rage MB...
but while looking for it on eBay I repeatingly found the same bidders on whatever offer included THAT mobo

cheers, Tom

Yes true I have seen total systems with a celeron that included the motherboard. I simply don't need all the extra parts (I have an attic full of parts going back to before token ring adapters were hot).