With regard to replicating real world synths, Algo, Peezahj

ontik · Post by **ontik** » Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:25 pm

WITH REGARD TO THE FOLLOWING I PINCHED FROM ANOTHER FORUM.....

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if only there was someone who did AccessVirus for the pulsar haha...

(reply) Peezahj is working on presets for a soon-to-be-released(?) Mod2 emulation of the Virus
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I have wondered about this quite a bit. I have not purchased Propack as yet and therefore do not have ModV2. What I have been wondering is exactly how hard is it to replicate the models of real world synths? I have a pretty good understanding of the workings of Analogue synths but have not gotten into the nuts and bolts of constructing them and would be prepared to learn if it were worth my while.

How feasible is it to build a duplicate of something like the Access Virus (or a Korg MS 2000 which I have) as a Mod2 preset and how accurate is the replica likely to be soundwise? I expect that you would have to obtain an appropriate schematic of the structure of the chosen synth before you could start to build one but how detailed would it need to be? I ask this because my Korg has a Synth Block Diagram on the front panel but I wonder if it would be detailed enough to create a suitable rep. If not, is it possible to get such documentation or would that be heavily guarded deep in a vault somewhere within the walls of Korg HQ?

I also wonder why guys like John Bowen (ex Korg synthesis engineeer now known as Zarg) don't do this kind of thing. You know, something like the U Know or Miniscope concepts?

I would love to know all your thoughts on this...

PEACE, LOVE AND MUNGBEANS

ontiK

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ontik on 2001-11-21 20:29 ]</font>

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 4:07 am

I'm no sound engineer, just a user.-
I think you can build a fairly close replica if the synth uses standard components or components delivered with Pulsar (like the Waldorf OSC's). Then I think it's possible to create a good percentage of the spectrum that the synth offers. 100% is a heavy task and with Modular not possible. One needs Scope for that as Zarg/Winecountry/SequentialCircuits demonstrate with the Prophet and ProOne.
Short: Modular 2 is a damn versatile thing. You can do a lot, but not everything.
For the nuts and bolts have a look at Zarg's home page.
Modular 2 class! Teacher: John Bowen himself!!!

Happy pulsaring
Micha

BTW, ontik, have a look at the Announcements + win a M2.

rcaia · Post by **rcaia** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:04 pm

I have a 90% completed Virus patch that I haven't found the time to finish off. I started it as a challenge and to better understand synthesis in general. I picked the Virus because it had several features not that common... and the documentation for it was easy enough to understand that I had a starting point... and I had the .wav files for the wave oscillator.

I've lost momentum on the project because it became apparent that the patch was going to get BIG in order to do EVERYTHING the Virus does. Some of the things that need to be done are doable, but cumbersome in Modular 2. To duplicate the modulation routings takes a large effort.

My patch gets one voice out of my PulsarI...

Conclusions... it's a great excercise, but it is wiser to use the building blocks in Modular2 to make maybe similar synths to something else and make the best use of the Mod2 features rather than strictly copying another synth.

How does it sound? Really nice I think. But someone with a Virus will have to judge if it can make similar sounds.

I will work on it some this weekend and upload it whether it's "done" or not. Don't hold your breath for incredible patches though. I'm better at hooking it up than programming sounds.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 3:00 am

No synth I've ever played sounds identical to any other, and I've played a hell of a lot of synths. A Pro-One doesn't sound anything like a Korg Mono-Poly, the Mono-Poly can't get the sweet sounds of a Poly61, the Roland Jupiter 4 sounds a lot different to the Jupiter 6 and Jupiter 8, and they're both different to a SuperJupiter. Even machines with virtually identical routing such as the Korg PolySix and Roland Juno 6 sound completely different even when all controls are closely matched.

To ask the Modular to replicate exactly the sound of some other synth is asking a hell of a lot. Sure, you can say it has X oscillators, with X routing, modified by X filters and X LFOs, but that isn't going to replicate the sound, just the routing.

The new Prisma synth that comes with Pulsar V3 just reeks of ModV2. Sure, it's a versatile synth with fabulous modulation possibilities blah blah blah, but its ModV2. It has the ModV2 sound. And unless you really try VERY hard you're not going to get the sound of a Roland, Korg or Virus out of ModV2.

But replicating other hardware is not what the ModV2 is all about - at least for me. It's about creating new synths and sounds. Replicating synths is sort of like condensed versions of books - why bother ? Why not read the original?

I'm NOT criticising the idea of replicating synths because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than buying the real thing. All I'm saying is that ModV2 is it's own beast and as flexible as it is, it's still the ModV2. It's like saying the SuperJupiter is a fantasically powerful machine therefore I'll ask it to emulate a Prophet 5.

For me the ModV2 is about creation, not emulation.

But hey, good luck. I love the Virus. If it gets only halfway there you have my congratluations and I'll be downloading double-quick...

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 6:59 am

One thing comes to my mind as I read this thread:
The only satisfaction you'll get out of perfectly simulating a synth sound is personal.
Remember one very important thing, if you plan to have your music played publicly you have to realise that 95% of your audience is essentially deaf, meaning they can't tell the difference between a saw wave and a chainsaw...
So, do it for your own pleasure but don't expect the random listener to know or even give a damn, as long as he(she) likes the tune.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:21 am

Yer right Paul.

The sound might not be the same as the original, cos it still will contain different styles filters and envelopes etc.

But the possibilities of sound creation might be what they're after... Indeed, your public doesn't know the real thing either, they want cool sounds. I hope these clones will achieve that. But remember, we'll still be working will Creamware atoms, not ie. Hammond pipes. Not that one is better or worse, but THEY'RE DIFFERENT

the atom.

rcaia · Post by **rcaia** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 9:12 am

Agree with your comments... One reason I never finished this thing off is I wasn't ready for the "It doesn't sound like a Virus" comments.

One thing Modular2 teaches is how many variables there are in a synth. Take something very basic like envelope to cutoff... Are the envelope stage slopes linear or curved? And do they curve on all or only some of the stages? And to the same degree? And is cutoff itself linear or curved? All this and then the filter itself may have very different response characteristics from the synth you're trying to match. [So makes you admire those like John Bowen all the more that can actually pull it off]. Since I don't have a Virus I couldn't "match" a sound no matter how I try.

Now as for why to look at the Virus for inspiration... Several features intrigue me.

1. Oscillator shape morphing [Mod2 comes with Sine>Saw and Sine>Pulse but Virus does Wav>Saw>Pulse, so that offers some cool evolving sounds]. So I've cobbled together modules to do this and it's nice.

2. Filter > Saturation > Filter setep. I'm using the Obsidian Mod1 goodies [rectifier, inverter, DC offset, summer] to split the + and - side of the waveform and apply different types and levels of saturation to the signal. Gives some extra control...

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So for me when I call mine a "Virus"... I'm really just using the virus waves, virus style osc setup, virus style filter/saturation setup, and similar modulation routings [although I've really given up doing the full routing as it just gets very cumbersome and therefore not that usable in practice].

So here's status... I've rebuilt it under V3 with the 8in/8out module. All the main sections are up and working. Modulation features are in progress. Somehow it seems a bit more DSP efficient this build, but don't hold your breath for a lot of poly out of this thing.

paulrmartin · Post by **paulrmartin** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 9:27 am

Is there a possibility of hearing such a module?