sync: 2 Cubases via 2 Pulsar1's on two PC's

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Wed Oct 03, 2001 1:56 pm

I quote the Cubase manual page 613:

"About Sample Accurate Positioning
When transferring audio digitally between devices, it is important that synchronization
is established on two levels:
• Level 1 : Sample Rate (word clock sync)
If this type of sync isn’t established, you may run into problems with for example clicks and pops or distortion.
• Level 2 : Sample Position (time code sync)
If the two devices do not agree on time positions, inaccuracies in positioning of the material will occur.
When performing audio transfers between devices, you need both types of sync
(word clock and time code). Furthermore, the two need to be completely correlated.
If not, the audio will not be recorded at the exact intended (sample accurate) position, which can cause various types of problems.""

Here's my solution. I found the explanation from above right after the sync was accomplished ) So it was rather a confirmation.

1.I have ASIO sample rate sync between 2 Pulsar1 cards, one in each pc.

2.I have a midi connection (non-Pulsar, those apparently do not work for me, nor Win98 nor Win2K) between two pc's. Both Comp's are synced in time via MTC.

Both are based on the same audio clock. So all is sync -)woooha!
Too bad I cannot get the transport to work 100%. Then I'll need Z-Link. Z-Link looks like only improvement for now.
ASIO2 I cannot directly transfer, I think so too... Any other type of connections/setups known?
The slaved Cubase follows the master perfectly, throughout my 10min's test.
When I change an MTC time manually on master transport bar, slave follows. But the transport does not follow ffw/rew (I think only when playing the song, not on idle).

Is that normal MTC behaviour?
I can live with that setup
But of course, any improvements or hints are always welcome

atomic

See:
http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 9&forum=1&
[ This Message was edited by: atomic on 2001-11-07 23:04 ]

[ This Message was edited by: atomic on 2001-12-19 10:53 ]

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Thu Nov 22, 2001 8:11 pm

Save the head-ache

buy two synch plates (they did make those for pulsar 1's right?I'm still kind of new)

buy an external clock source. MTP A/V or other brand.

That should lock em both up and make em' phase and sample accurate.

Micha · Post by **Micha** » Fri Nov 23, 2001 3:41 am

no ZLink for Pulsar 1

Happy pulsaring
Micha

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Nov 24, 2001 7:19 am

I hear everyone say "wordclock and MTC) which one does ADAT sync replace? One or both?

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Thu Nov 29, 2001 10:55 pm

On 2001-11-24 07:19, braincell wrote:
I hear everyone say "wordclock and MTC) which one does ADAT sync replace? One or both?

ADAT can replace wordclock which is a sampleaccurate metronome.
ASIO2 clock also exists, which is MTC kind of clock on the wall.

ASIO2 sync can be transmitted via ADAT or SPDIF I believe.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Fri Nov 30, 2001 9:01 am

I agree, SyncPlates make everything easier with more complex setups.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:29 pm

Check this link on Steinbergs website about Commputer Audio Networking!!!

This'll be cewl

kimgr · Post by **kimgr** » Sun Jan 13, 2002 11:37 pm

You just need to send MMC from the master to the slave.
(=Midi Machine Control)

Kim.

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Mon Jan 14, 2002 11:49 am

Ever tried to sync 2 programs using MTC? It's good to sync pads and efx, but snares don't really sound on the bassdrum, they kinda float around it :/

This link on Cubase's site tells you not only that they can sync sequencers, they also speak of common audio and midi ports. Makes me very excited.

I know Steinberg's had their RocketPower for a while, but this VST sync beats everything I ever seen before! All I've been trying to do last years, they make now possible in one comsumer package. Have no idea how it'll be implemented though.
Anyone seeing additional hardware for that? Or will digi audio like SPDIF will be enough?

exciting!

[ This Message was edited by: atomic on 2002-01-14 11:49 ]

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 8:59 pm

so I'm able to sync throu ADAT?

they sample rate will be different even if you set both to 44000?

if i just want the other PC for Effects? will it matters?

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:01 pm

oh and the sync plate is for syncrinize audio and midi from the sequencer also?
how much is that?
and
it serves as the same function as the zlink?

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:25 pm

If you want to sync no sequencers, only audio sample frequency and send ie. 8 stereo channels back and forth to another pc w ADAT, you could use that. Set one of both samplerate clocks to slave, the other to master. I set my sequencer's host to master, slave others pc and sampler. You can easily use this to mix or apply effects, you could send midi clock for LFO sync and notes/CC# to to control the CW synths as if it were hardware. Assign CC# and program changes and ... you get what I mean by now.
Pulsar1 doesn't slave to SP/DIF. All other connections will work probably.

To sync 2 sequencers, like Acid and Cubase, you need another kind of sync. Previous types were 'metronome' type clocks, the clock for sequencing digital audio needs to be more accurate, preferably including song positions and being sample accurate. The ASIO2 protocol implies this kind of sync, the 'ASIO2 dest' has a sync input. It can be transferred from pc to pc with a SyncPlate for CW systems (and other cards for 3rd party I think, some include the option standard too, check 1212 maybe

Something different: I'm fine now as we're using our samplers w short triggered samples, but I gues if we were to play ie. 1hr sample, we'd need better sync and get a syncplate to sync. Also when I'm getting the sample accurate midi patchbay, I'll consider doing wordclock sync. But for now all sync's fine here, so I don't bother too much about it.

at0m.

ps. I found out today that FruityLoops slaves to midi clock! I always understood it could only be master. Sweet

Would not use that kind of sync for mixing/mastering, but it's nice to export the audio into the main sequencer!

[ This Message was edited by: at0mic on 2002-03-23 21:31 ]

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:39 pm

so u mean the sync plate can work will with different brand's sync plate?
how much is creamware's sync plate

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 10:06 pm

Midi cables between two pc will do?

foreample if i have a programed midi sequence on "PC1MidiPortA" on chennel 1.
on PC2 if i want to control a certain VSTi on PC2 which doesn't have multi parts, am i able to control it?

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 10:46 pm

Yes you will perfectly be able to control it. Your sequencer should send all midi, do not slave the other sequencer but for VST/VSTi instrument and fx sync. Keep in mind that Cubase can only receive midi on one channel at the same time, 'one main input base for the selected track only'. Cakewalk can have one input for each track, but doesn't support VST.

You'll have the latency from your midi port and VSTi host card as extra when you play live through your sequencer. However, when you recorded it and play it back, you can manually compensate for that. Cubase will match the midi predelay with it's host soundcard automatically, but it cannot read external card latency values to anticipate to. Logical. This might be solved in the Cubase SX version. Let's wait and do with what we have now.

If you deceide to remotely control Pulsar, this might be much more rewarding. Even when I sequenced on my CW system, I sent the midi via a patchbay, which occasionally caused problems so I moved it to another pc, together w my sequencer. The patchbay's I/O's are multi client, and the CW hardware ports are far more solid than the Sequecer Midi Dest/Sources we got.

For your records: One guy told me one day his CW host pc crashed, while he was using the CW cards remotely via midi and for mixing/recording. As the only music he used on the crashed pc was on his CW system w no other software involved, and in Device Manager the 'reset board if idle' was disabled. (This option is mainly for pc on standby compatibility) The cards continued to run the Pulsar OS after the PC OS crash (as long as pc wasn't rebooted/shutdown) and he could finish his project. Impressive he.

__________________
Still showing new things to dxl.

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:20 am

both of the pc have CW card?
and what the latency might be? large than 50ms?
thankz anyway!

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:54 am

Now all CW cards are in one pc. The VSTi latency should be about 10-40ms, which is doable. But much depends on your VSTi hosts latency.

I don't use remote VSTi, I use remote CW Project.

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 2:35 am

so, if the slaved PC have a ASIO latency of 24ms, it will add on the midi latency(10~40ms)?
more midi messages you transmite more latency?
but when comes for EFFECT, latency won't be a problem right?

thank you for ur passion on my question man!!

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 3:01 am

Yes, the latencies will add. A dedicated patchbay (ie. AMT/Unitor for Logic, Midex for Cubase) has realtime operation, no latency. Also, when transmitting lots of midi via such a device will not induce latency, or have very low latency and high bandwidth.

DAMN MY WHOLE SAMPLES DRIVE GOT BUST THIS MORNING AAAAAAAARRRGG The other partition is stil fine, McAfee 22/3 update doesn't find virus, Partition is in RAW format AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGH

dxl · Post by **dxl** » Sun Mar 24, 2002 3:23 am

dedicated patchbay ??
so, it won't increase latency. or the latency will not be constent? how to reduce the latency? "dedicated patchbay" is the factor?
high bandwidth on what? midi have high bandwidth?

hey man, you shoud use PCC2002 or nativirus2002, they are better and bigger!
what kind of viruse is that? harddrive still useable?

i now know a P4 1.4 can't be enough for my use, but it's very uneconomical to sell it and get an AMD XP2000. so i'm thinking a new PC might be a better solution. which i can get a AMD1.4G cheap now.

which choice is better? if the midi latency isn't ...