Bad day for XP warez users

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:42 pm

Stories about warez users having a hard time make me feel better about spending so much money on legit software....

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/b083dc72-7009- ... 511c8.html

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:45 am

=P

For one, if they eliminate all pirated copies of Windows, they won't have a monopoly on the OS desktop market anymore. Oops =P.

For two, once this is in place, the security updates are just going to end up being pirated themselves anyway.

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:03 am

well, just to inform others as well; buy an OEM version of xp, and save lots of cash.

Foun out that the only thing you need to buy to be able to buy an OEM version is "a component that can be considered a key component in the computer", in example a $5-mouse. this will save you $$$ off xp.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:46 am

Microsoft said that by limiting access to updates on its site it would help to protect users from "an inferior computing experience, viruses and other vulnerabilities that can result from counterfeit software".

Utter BS imho.... even if this anti-piracy thing works (most unlicensed Windows XP users use a key generator and not one of the 'known' pirated keys

), the only thing they will succeed in doing is making the virus/trojan/security problem *worse*, as there will be far more PCs out there which are unprotected.

The thing which causes vulnerabilities, viruses and 'an inferior experience' is Microsoft's crappy approach to coding

8-Bit · Post by **8-Bit** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:52 am

Yeh...
All i have to say about this is that I'm glad I buy my software now. Its one thing to pirate software if youre broke and are weary about spending money on something that may actually be useless... But if someone is dedicated enough to base their whole computer OS off of it, it behooves them to invest in a proper/clean copy of the software itself. Its like melting sugar in a pot instead of using insulin for diabetes... Your system depends on it, you might as well buy ONE product.. make it your OS. OR! Grow some ba**s and use Linux like a real man(thats a diff story all together, though).

cheers,
8

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:34 pm

Think about the cost if you are an individual with 2 or 3 computers. Plus large companies get extreme discounts so users who build their own computers get the short end of the stick

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:48 pm

On 2005-01-27 13:43, stardust wrote:
Well,

if an OS for consumers would not cost 180 ¤ but what it is worth, ...

then they had to pay ME for their crap polluting my drives...

if they'd work seriously on their stuff with the goal of finally delivering a final product then there'd be nothing wrong with the approach.
but I cannot find even the slightest hint that M$ ever did or intends to do

let alone the million ways of pushing stuff into 'market' just to gain share. Either a product is considered a product and has a value or it cannot be regarded as such.
Imho they just don't qualify for 'industry' standard and accordingly better shut up.

cheers, tom

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:44 pm

Interesting replies. Not talking about anyone here individually, but I get the impression that using warez music apps is not OK, but warez microsoft Windows XP is OK ?

That's because some people dislike the company or feel it's products aren't value for money ?

What would you say to a Cubase SX3 user with this same argument ?

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:59 pm

I know many people who have plenty of Windows XP Pro licenses but because of the unbelievably stupid re-authorizing procedure, will use an illegal Corporate version which is identical in every respect other than it does not need to be re-authorized if you change a few bits of hardware.

Obviously this is, at the end of the day, illegal, but I think you make your choices by balancing common sense, reality and ethics.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-01-27 19:01 ]</font>

symbiote · Post by **symbiote** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:35 pm

On 2005-01-27 18:44, Spirit wrote:

That's because some people dislike the company or feel it's products aren't value for money ?

What would you say to a Cubase SX3 user with this same argument ?

If you want to know, the company in question isn't exactly white as snow either, if that's a discussion you want to get into =P.

I for one could care less about the company if the product worked well, but given how much tinkering and poking around is needed to get the product to a minimum functional setup that doesn't completely kill my CPU cycles, and given that it's completely flawed on a architectural/design basis that makes trying to eliminate all "vulnerabilities" almost useless, and given all the nagging and useless authorization stuff and little funny processes that try to ship all sorts of information to Microsoft without my consent (packet filters are fun =P,) and given that they push incomplete beta software onto their customers as complete software, and given that there's no alternative for PC (supported by commercial sotware I mean,) I'm not to hot about giving them my money, especially given how much they charge for it.

I bought an XBox about a year ago, with Halo, and recently Halo 2 and 12 months XBox Live thingy and whatever. Well, the XBox stopped working, it boots up, can't open/close the DVD tray, and prints a "your XBox needs technical support" message thingy. Cost for repair? 120$CDN or something sick. So they can completely die alone and suffering in a puddle of mud if they think I'm going to pay for Windows. That is my choice as a consumer =P. And as a company operating in countries that adhere to international copyright laws, it is their choice and their freedom to use (or not) the legislative mechanisms in place to try and attempt to pry that money from my cold, dead hands (just kidding, just a clone to fake my death and become invisible =P.)

They have $50 billions CASH (well, "electronic" cash =P), plus almost all the best software engineers on the planet, they sure as heck can afford (and have the technical main-d'oeuvre and knowledge and infrastructure) to put out a better product than this.

And I'm not even going to get into their business practice, which are highly similar to the Rockefeller approach that led to the establishement of anti-trust laws in the United States (which, are, as demonstrated by M$ themselves, pretty useless), lack of respecting for standards, high amount of propaganda to try and destroy Linux snd everything else that might threathen them, complete disrespect for standards, and so on, because honestly it would be way too long. Remember the NSAKEY in the NT4 Service Pack that was unfortunately (for them

) released with all the debug symbols compiled in? Probably not. =P

Suffice to say, Microsoft knows that it has limited time with Windows, so it's going to try and milk as much money as they can from it, because Operating Systems are all moving pretty fast toward Open Source, simply because of the nature of a computer, and their incredibly different and varied use. An Operating System simply cannot be considered complete anymore if you are completely tied to a vendor and can't even modify it for your own needs, hence why Linux is steadily eating at Windows's market. Microsoft knows this, and has already started the propaganda machine in that direction with some source-sharing programs and whatnot.

Anyway, since I now have my engineering's degree, I am but a few months away from ditching Windows FOREVER!!! except for coding, and cleaning spyware and viruses from people's computer for extra-income =P.

Also, if you were to ask me, I'd say SX3 is a bit overpriced too (as are most high end audio software of the sequencer sort, except maybe stuff like fruityloops, tracktion and orion) =P I wouldn't say it's alright to pirate it at all. If you use it, like it, and can afford it, you'd be pretty stupid not to get it, especially if you derive income from it. On the other hand, and even tho I win my income from writing software (and actually enjoy it,) I consider that there is *nothing wrong* with a 18-19 year old student pirating a copy of Cubase/Logic/Whatever to thinker around with it, quite the oppposite in fact, I consider someone developing skills in a software to be an advantage for the company in the long run, especially if it's a student that is going to net a good income and a good salary (and thus be able to afford the software when they graduate.) It's all a matter of perspective and common sense.

I'm a bit tired about the whole piracy thing, having it hailed as a purely negative thing, because it at least has the huge sociological advantage of *putting the tools in the hands of those the most apt to use it, not only those who can afford it*. Not to mention that there is *NO LOSS OF REVENUE* if someone uses illegally a software that they haven't paid for but wouldn't have bought/couldn't afford otherwise (which I suspect, after lots and lots of times sitting on both sides of the computer/software univese, is the majority of cases, in the non-commercial world.)

As a software developer, I consider that the key to a successful and lucrative software product is 1) CREATING A QUALITY PRODUCT and 1) RESPECTING YOUR CUSTOMERS AND BUILDING A MARKET BASED ON RESPECT AND COMMON SENSE, not whining like a baby about piracy, and building COMPLETELY USELESS, and I mean really COMPLETELY USELESS "protection" systems (except for Creamware, props =P but they're doing a hardware/software hybrid, not plain software) that ONLY end up making the software more expensive (and ALOT MORE ANNOYING, HI WAVES AND PACE ILOK, SEE MY MONEY HERE?? NO YOU DONT!!! HAHAHA) for the customers, and breeding ever more motivated generations of crackers, who are fueled alot more by glory and peer recognition and pure challenge-beating. And also, as you might have noticed, the amount of poor people in the world is going UP, the amount of hardware in the world is going UP, and it's going to be really, really, really hard to stop a bunch of bored, penny-less children and teenagers (and adults) who have nothing to lose, everything to gain, and access to electricity and discared hardware.

As a software developer (and hardware developer, as soon as I can afford the capital =P,) I'd rather work with these realities and build a product that people will want to use, buy, invest in and support, than waste time and money building useless protection systems and lobbying clueless (and a few odd clueful ones) legislative/government employees/entities to cook laws that will end up destroying any shred of innovation left.

All that being said, and to close this rant, I would still like to point out that there is Free/Open Software that is quite nice, quite stable, and quite usable at this point in time, for just about any task at end, except fairly specialized stuff. I would also like to point out that, even tho I've actually said *gasp* positive things about "piracy", it's really, really important to buy and support the software you use.

And no, Open Source operating systems and software won't kill remunerated programming jobs, QUITE the opposite, the software and hardware infrastructure won't be tied up to a single (or few odd) closed commercial companies and products, so anyone can start a business doing support, custom software tweaks, and so on, and the formation will be alot less expensive, IE you can just pickup the Operating System and learn how it works by yourself, proove youself with a few open products/things that you can show customers, and be able to offer services supporting just about anything, instead of having to pay 5000$ for a stupid certification/formation that might be useless in 2 years and that you'll have to renew. THAT is why Microsoft is all hyper-propanganda against Open Source and the whole model and the whole "oooh it produces lower quality software cuz of the chaotic dev process!" FUD. Even with 50 billions in the bank, they're afraid =P.

When Jesus did it with the bread, it was called a miracle. Now we can do it with software, but it's called piracy. Go figure =P.

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:09 pm

...and while speaking of windows and piracy, lets not forgot this one, courtesy of Atom|c:

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... 2&forum=31

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:15 pm

Totally agreed on the open-source stuff. I've seen Microsoft use some pretty disgusting tactics against the threat of Linux. I remember one case when a company/organization was thinking of shifting to Linux from Microsoft, mainly due to the massive savings possible. Microsoft came in with an offer to undercut the small company providing the Linux support, running the whole deal at a loss but sustaining its products' ubiquitous status.

Looking at piracy, as I said earlier, is all about common sense, reality and ethics. While I take on board your argument about kids being able to dabble and increase their skills, there are a shocking amount of commercial-level users who, given the chance, will just pirate software. The practice is pretty widespread (I've even heard of universities using warez.. not isolated cases either) and the audio market is relatively small (actually tiny) in the greater scheme of things, so it could definitely be a problem.

I think that, all things considered, one would be pretty stupid to equate Microsoft to Steinberg. If you want my personal opinion, Microsoft's business practices sicken me and their whole approach is flawed and will ultimately lead to their downfall (I won't be shedding any tears when this happens). Even still, I cover my ass by being licensed. We all have free minds and our own choices to make.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2005-01-27 22:17 ]</font>

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:19 pm

Oh and I forgot to add that any company that invents Windows Networking deserves to die a slow miserable death

spoimala · Post by **spoimala** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:10 am

dArKr3zIn,
I fully agree. It's weird that Micro$oft never learns: the pirates' side will always be in front of them.
No matter what kind of protection they make, it will be broken. At least, as long as they don't have one
identification number for the whole hardware...

But I think, even SFP would be cracked if it was part of operating system. (I mean, now there are not enough
highly skilled crackers interested in doing it)

And also about your second post about Corporate versions: How will m$ track these down?

Stardust wrote:
Why should any1 spend energy on digging for pirated material if its not worth the effort.

I guess you have never searched one

. Finding pirated XP is not about spending energy.

If only M$ put all their effort on making their software more secure and stable instead of making the life of
respectable users more difficult and trying to desperately beat the pirates.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:55 am

On 2005-01-29 06:10, spoimala wrote:
...
But I think, even SFP would be cracked if it was part of operating system. (I mean, now there are not enough
highly skilled crackers interested in doing it)
...

you exactly name it, but you draw the wrong conclusion

Of course it would be cracked if all code would run on the main CPU (as part of the OS).

THAT's why one half of the encryption is executed on a different (type of) CPU in an environment to which you don't have any access.
Recently someone (trustworthy) told me that even access to the free SDK doesn't bring you any closer to the protection.

It isn't related to 'talent' at all - it IS impossible.
One might succeed to individually crack one single installation with a tremendous effort, but there's no general scheme to be published - the next version will use a different encryption. It's two moving targets...

cheers, Tom

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:43 am

The main issues I have with Microsoft is the lameness of their approach and their lack of innovation.

Why, after all these years, do they not have a stable, robust networking solution? Why on earth can a machine not accept more than ~10-12 TCP/IP connections? Not to mention the never-ending security issues. And yet XP is sold as a professional working environment.

I agree that XP was a great leap in terms of stability, but really this should have happened years ago - instead MS was busy releasing more and more crappy versions of Windows 9x.

The upshot of this is that Apple becomes regarded as the innovator. And justifiably so... I wouldn't say that I like their approach 100% either, but it's light years ahead of Microsoft's. The Mac-Mini looks like a really smart move, and like it or not, it is becoming excruciatingly cool to proudly display your Powerbook or Ipod on public transport and in Internet cafe's, like a designer label T-shirt.

This IMHO is the result of Microsoft's dinosaur-like Machiavellian business tactics, based on brute-force methods and not on quality and innovation. Apple is far from being the opposite of this, but they are definitely on a better track than Microsoft. I have a definite feeling that Apple is going to increase its market share drastically.. people are finally realising how amazingly crap their high-street PCs are (I serviced high-street PCs for 2 years, and I can assure you these machines are next to useless), and not many people have the time/knowledge/inclination to research between a gazillion components (I was spec-ing up an AMD64/NForce4 machine for a friend the other day, and it was a headache to say the least) and build a good PC from scratch. And let's face it, most people just want to surf the net, write emails and letters, watch movies, play MP3s and sync up their Ipods. Even a Mac-Mini or iMac/iBook does this stuff with way more slickness than the *average* PC with Windows.

Post by **hubird** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 9:34 am

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 10:00 am

BTW... don't get me started on Apple's business tactics either

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 1:11 pm

I think they figure "If you can't beat em, join em".

Post by **garyb** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 2:14 pm

they(apple & m$) both have bill gates as major shareholder. of course they behave similarly. apple just has better quality propaganda and brainsoaps.....