SX3 - MIDI latency problem

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:18 am

Hi all,

I was just wondering if any of you are experiencing MIDI latency problems with sx3. Basically, I need to insert a negative delay on any track that goes via a midex8 to external hardware in order to get this hardware to play in time with the rest of the project. Please note that this doesn't seem to be related to the issue of emulated ports, and besides that fact of the delay, timing is otherwise stable. In order to see if you have this problem, turn on the metronome and create a midi part triggering an external synth on the same beats. You will quickly hear whether the two are playing in time.

Other Scope users have posted similar problems on cubase.net so I am trying to see if my creamware might be the source of the problem.

Other specs that may be of interest: amd 2700+ cpu, midex8, xp pro.

thanks in advance,

suth.

Post by **garyb** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm

sx3 solid here. have you got 3.01 yet? it's MUCH better than 3.00. i was really disgusted with 3, but the patch seems to have fixed most problems and added a nice new reverb....

Bracelet Z · Post by **Bracelet Z** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:33 pm

Hello mates!

I am going to buy Cubase SX3. Since You already have it, I want to explore some things:

What about CPU usage if to compare to SX2?

Is it really possible to freeze VST effects? How does it work? The same? It freezes in to 32bit .wav file?

Is it much better than SX2?

Sincerely,
Bracelet Z

Post by **garyb** » Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:09 pm

the new patch seems to be real nice....

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:54 am

Hi all,

Well, it's good to hear that none of you are experiencing this latency, which means that it's probably not the creamware at fault. Ah well, gotta keep looking then. Quick question, if I may: what cpus are you all running?

Aside from this (and a few mysterious crashes and some rather annoying bugs) sx3.01 is a very nice upgrade. I have been pretty impressed with all the really cool little features they have added that make life easier and more productive. Being able to create controllers for external hardware is incredibly useful to me (even if devices are still somewhat thin on the ground at the mo').

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:10 am

p.s. what midi interfaces are you guys using?

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:29 am

Hi,

I have already discovered one person who didn't know that he had this problem until he tried the following test:

The easiest way to determine this is as follows: in a clean project, create two tracks, one audio, one midi. The audio track should play a short audio file with a very quick attack and short decay (a closed hihat is good) on each beat of a 4/4 bar. On the midi track notes on the same beats to an external synth playing a similar sound (timbre and shape) to the audio file. You will hear immediately whether your part is in time or not. Finally, adjust the track delay value for that midi part until the two are in time and you will have your midi latency value.

I am using a midex 8 with scope on an amd 2700+ and am experiencing a midi latency of 21.5 ms with my audio card set to 14ms output latency.

So far there are 5 people that I know of who are experiencing this problem and 4 have creamware cards...

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:18 am

I suspect that Creamware is not the source of the problem, especially since you're using a midiex8 to send the data rather than Creamware's midi i/o.

Post by **garyb** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:27 am

it's not the card.

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:03 am

garyb,

so you've performed the test and track delay remained on 0? that's good to hear...

Post by **garyb** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:32 am

usb midi has a pretty high latency....

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:40 am

On 2005-01-12 01:29, suthnear wrote:
...So far there are 5 people that I know of who are experiencing this problem and 4 have creamware cards...

that invites me to drop my favourite quote about statistics...
in Germany there's a fairy tale that a certain kind of bird brings the babies overnight.
and we have a regressing birth rate, wich is almost identical to the regression rate of exactly that bird
hence it's a scientific proof that the story is true...

I have an external synth controlled by a graphical editor program. It's fed from an external hardware sequencer (using Pulsar's midi IO).
Now when I do some screen action the timing (which isn't even generated in the computer) gets completely messed up - the more window movement, the more messed notes.
This happens under Win2K (and probably will under XP) - it never happened in Win98.

Imho it's an OS feature and CWA's cards are possibly rather sensitive to this in a certain context (according to midi problems in context with XP, certain mobos, bios settings, interrupts).

On the other hand even if THERE IS a true deviation in timing - why bother if it doesn't get noticable to the listener ?
It's not all machine precision techno where you indeed rely on such effects

cheers, Tom

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:11 am

Tom,

I appreciate your story. However, I am trying to solve a problem in sx3 that didn't exist in sx2. I am trying to find a root cause and it seems that of the people I have encountered who have noticed this problem, four have creamware cards. By asking here, I am trying to see if this is a general problem or specific to my (and a few others') setup.

There is a very significant practical ramification to the problem. If you have to advance or delay a track in order to bring it in time with the rest of the project then that track is out of sync with midi clocks. I use midi clocks a fair bit in order to get my evolver in sync with my cubase projects and this problem has effectively ended that. The resulting mess that ensues is not suitable for any style of music I have ever heard.

All I am asking is that if you care about issues like proper timing or even just helping a fellow being out, please try this test and let me know the outcome.

Thanks again

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:40 am

sorry Suthnear if I came over kidding or disrespectful - no offence intended.
See my previous post as a sidenote to occasional overestimating of numeric 'facts' (not related to your actual case, but to the fellows you mentioned).

I cannot be of much (specific) help because I don't have any version of Cubase.
But from your description it's rather likely that the flaw is Cubase related.

Unfortunately the environment is extremely complex: bios configuration, interupts, PC in standard or acpi mode, which kind of powermanagement is active, priority of foreground or background processing, priority of the SX app, driver integrity and possibly even more stuff I'm unaware off.

Your test will not reveal any hint for the source of the problem, but has one advantage, though: it will reveal if the timing difference is drifting.
In some cases this will 'self compensate' the problem (partially), in other cases it will be even more annoying.

For me a CONSTANT displacement between midi and audio wouldn't be a showstopper (it's what any classic recorder has), but you may prefer a different way to work - which I consider as acceptable as my ignorance.

In the worst case it may be applicable to adapt one's style of working - if everything else fails (or is beyond personal control, like SX programming details).

cheers, Tom

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:23 am

Tom,

None taken. And as I said, I did actually appreciate the fact that you were trying to introduce a note of perspective into the debate. You contributions on this board are many, intelligent and valuable.

It's just that I don't think this problem has anything to do with set up or config. I think it's a small error in the code of sx3 and if I get enough people to notice it, then steinberg will notice it and fix it...

So I'm being selfish but in an altruistic kind of way

shinobrin · Post by **shinobrin** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:59 pm

I had problems with mm8x8 on a friends machine updated drivers fixed it. However when we upgraded to spf3.1c and then 4.0, neither of us can get sx 1.2 2.02 to quantize.

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:55 am

I presume you mean that when you're in the key editor you can't get midi notes to quantise by hitting q - correct? Does this apply even when you ctrl-a and then q?

BTW - those of you who are working with sx3 without latency, what ULLI setting are you using? Thx...

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:39 am

This is interesting, I'm using a Midisport 8X8 and have been having no end of problems with MIDI since I've started using it. For instance, the notes are shifted in time (by the same amount) when I record any MIDI. In the future I'm going to just hook a keyboard directly into the scope card when I want to record MIDI. The MidiEx 8X8 works fine for live performances, but for PC synchronization it doesn't seem to work properly (and that was supposed to be one of its selling points). I don't think it's related to the Creamware card (unless it can affect the totally separate drivers for the Midisport).

I also have had the same problems with not being able to quantize, the notes are out of position, I hit Q and it doesnt quantize. WTF?

suthnear · Post by **suthnear** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:51 am

Liquid Len,

Have you been through the pdf in the portfilter directory? I seem to recall that midisports need special attention with regard to port filtering...

I will check quantising tonight and report back.

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:09 pm

Yes, I'm using the real ports not the emulated ones.