Jihad in Holland

Post by **hubird** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:07 am

Did your news programs on television report about the fundamentalistic attemted murder on film maker and opinion leader Theo van Gogh in your countries?
Today the gouvernment said we are in war of terrorism now also, so there is really something going on here.

Van Gogh recently made a short film about women treatment in fundamentalistic moslim circuits, with horrable images of serious ill-treated women.

He also was a column writer in news papers, in a very controversial way, but at the same time humoristic and intelligent.
Recently he called moslims 'goat f*ckers',
insulting was his way to open the debate.

He didn't want any security around him, they don't kill the madcap of the village, he said.
Now they did.

Something has changed in Holland as it seems, all talkshows are debating the consequences.
Times of free or not free obligation of dutch language courses are over, that is clear.
Extending intelligent agencies is was they've decided already.

Van Gogh was also finishing a film about
the murder of Pim Fortuyn, which was kind of an earthquake already in Holland.
But that was a political murder, not a religious one.

It's about 350 years ago now that we had our last religious murder.
It seems that those 350 years not can be taken in one generation step, for a few at least.
The murderer was well educated, and integrated in 'our' culture, after his mother's death something changed radically in his head, it seems.

He put a knife with five pages of paper with fundamentalistic and anti semitical statements in van Gogh's body, after having cut his throat (when he was hopefully dead already by the many bullets before).
Goat f*ckers? all too positive.

Anyway, the guy, van Gogh, was great, he really had an independend mind, specially and preferable regarding left wing taboos

He lived his life as a performance, was it writing colums, making a film, doing talk shows or just when beeing a normal guy who just brought his sun to scool on his bike.
Piece of cake for the murderer, he did that every day.
If someone in the street shouted something hatefull to him, he immediately got off his bike and started a debate with the guy, really.
This time he just was able to say, don't do it, don't do it.
I'm sure he was willing to say 'let's discuss it first, you goat fucker', but the young killer kept firing.
He checked if van Gogh really was dead,
cut his throat and put the knife with the papers on it in the body, like a flag.
Then he walked away, slowly.

I'm happy de killer guy is not killed by the police fire, I don't think he will ever be free again.

Wooden shoes? Tulips?
forget it for a while, Holland has a religious war.
Can't be true.

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-11-06 00:51 ]

Post by **hubird** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 12:57 am

............... ' My name is Funda Ment Ali, I never do f*cking goats, I always do beating wife! '

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 2:15 am

No matter whether the root cause is oil, politics, religion, history or culture, and no matter who "started" it, there IS an unprecedented worldwide battle now in progress.

It's taking many different forms in many different countries, and radical Islam is always found at the core.

I believe they want to see the ruination and destruction of western society & cultural influences (music!) and, like other absolutist regimes, no amount of appeasement will convince them otherwise.

It's sad that the world never seems to get closer to peace, it's just wave after wave of human troubles...

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:32 pm

If you read "Ghost in the Machine" by Koestler it all makes sense.

His premise is that we have a giant brain that has been stuck on top of little reptile brain system. The reptile brain justs wants to do the regular reptile things, hunt, kill, eat, procreate, sleep...anything weaker than you deserves to be your dinner! Anything that threatens you must be killed.

Then the giant brain comes up with civilization and rules and religions and politics and TV news and the Internet. Now we are in a state of constant overstimulation, and the reptile fight or flight relfex is just going 24/7, and eventually people start to freak out!

Those who are in control know full well that fear is the most powerful motivator...It's worked for the Catholics (and other religions) for almost 2000 years...you can't knock success. The media allows the constant feeding of ever bad thing that happens in the world immediately to your poor "wage earning, rent paying, taxed to the hilt" ape brian.

Meanwhile the reptile brain is saying "let's get out of here",or "let's kill something".

So everyone walks around agitated at some level or another. We never get to rest. We feel guilty if we are not "doing" something. The negative feelings re-inforce more negative feelings and the anxiety grows.

To cope with the anxiety people sedate the reptile brain with drugs and alcohol and TV. Or they overeat, or become addicted to sex, or some other strange behaviour (i.e. murder).

We are scared little lizards in Ape costumes who never should have eaten that apple. Seems maybe God (or Goddess) was right, the apple of knowledge was not good for the naked apes. We have more technology than we know what to do with and the world couldn't really be more screwed up. We haven't solved hunger or poverty or suffering for all the world's people, we have created a god awful mess of things because, ultimately, the reptile inside is actually calling the shots.

The giant brain then rationalizes any reptile behaviour so that the other apes understand, and everyone somehow agrees that killing other human beings is justified because, guess what, if you don't kill them first then they will kill you!

I think it's amazing that there isn't hundreds of murders a day in every city in the world!

The only answer is music, it soothes the savage breast...and beast.

R

Post by **garyb** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:58 pm

there are murders every day. in my neighborhood people get shot for much less. the politicians should just address this as the tragedy it is and not use it to stir up peoples' emotions in order to promote draconian(lizard), facist, fundementalist, controlling laws.

the leaders on ALL sides are doing their best to convince the humans that their brother is a killer. the leaders are the killers, but vicariously. the more that they succeed, the more they show their words to be true, vicious circle.

just deal with the killer. he is broken, malfuntioning. don't make society (more)broken and malfunctioning....

just my opinion...

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:21 pm

Imagine spending 200 billion dollars on food and housing for the poor and homeless?

Or on education from kindergarten to college, all paid for by the government.

Or on the country's infrastructure (which equals jobs).

How about spending money on research (once again equals jobs)for an alternative source of energy so that we don't need oil?

No they spend 200 billion dollars to kill people half way around the world so that they can have a democracy they are not even sure they want; or for that matter they may not even know what to do with.

It's painfully senseless.

R

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:00 pm

On 2004-11-06 15:21, nprime wrote:
Imagine spending 200 billion dollars on food and housing for the poor and homeless?
...

it does not work, unfortunately...
we have (had) a fairly sophisticated social security system in Germany, but based on at least some degree of social resoponsibility.

People quickly learned how easy it is to abuse. I'm not only referring to unemployment, but also health care and schools.
It has turned from a safety net for the weak and unfortunate (in a certain situation of their lives) to a self service store for (almost) everyone.
I spare the details - but the results (and the complaints) just s*ck.

Then we do have a 'regular' number of traffic death casualties each year probably in the same range of the victims in some of those unfortunate wars of recent years - and I agree with nprime about the mental origin of those casualties - self overestimation and unresponsibility.

Which brings me back to Hubird's original point.
THAT is not a religious war - in no way.
It's a political issue lead by the most primitive 2 legged creatures.
Obviously humans ARE that stupid to follow any nonsense unreflected, as the German past showed...

I deeply respect anyone's religious conviction, and religious tolerance is probably accepted anywhere in the world as a common human virtue.

Afaik Islam in itself is not intolerant, but Islamism ?
They used Buddha statues in Afghanistan as artillery training targets - and freak out if someone approaches one of their 'holy places' to close.
My deepest disrespect and may they get what they deserve.

There is a border - and it was crossed 9/11 (the target was supposed to have up to 50000 regular people working in place), as recently in Holland, as in many other places.

Western industry may be 'opressing' in some way, but they don't put a gun at your head and ask you to buy that burger or cola.
As said above, someone overestimates their own political meaning or possibly is tempted to play god - or maybe an Adolf and Joseph revival ?
They are teaching that hate stuff from as long as back from the 80s in islamic schools - found it recently in an old mag about egypt

And as said above about abuse of social security there's also an abuse of political tolerance - and at least imho there isn't any left.

sorry, Tom

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:59 pm

It's a drama what happened in A'dam, the murder of Van Gogh. It still is one of the main topics here. I just heared the 6th suspect of the setup has been arrested. Theo Van Gogh was very confronting in his pieces, and someone shut him up forever. Some say the dutch have a reputation to be frank. This murder was much more touching over there, where no one expected a taboo left...

Hey tom, the 'they' from your last paragraph can be found anywhere. And to my astonishment, while their deeds seem opposite, they are reaching the same goal. It's them seeding the fear and hatred.

As far as I know, no 'God' has ever asked for people to kill, Gods usually ask to love. Manipulating fanatics on either side are dangerous. And for now, what terrifies me most, is the Administration.

OT for some better international news: Putin has just signed Kyoto.

Post by **garyb** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:10 pm

spending 200 billion on the poor DOESN'T have to mean welfare.

being poor is not only about money, it's also about POWER. it's needed to have the poor to clean the toilets after a night of partying.

extremists are always a product of the power structure. they are nessessary for the survival of the military. it is important to have people to hate on both sides in order to make the world situation make any sense...

i know a young man shot in the gut for much less reason. as i said, this is AWFUL, deal with the individuals. islamists were part of/set up by the borman organization and others like it during ww2.....the reichstag fire was the result of "foreign terrorists"(the official story, history has shown that to not be true, that the nazi party did it themselves). "terrorism" is always a bad reason to start changing positive behaviors into negative ones for "security"'s sake. my dictionary shows "terrorism" to be a form of government fisrt and foremost.

once more, just opinions.

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:03 am

terrorism is a has a wide meaning. In example, if a norwegian, during ww2 had hijacked an aeroplane and crashed it into some high-status Nazi-sybolizing complex, he might have been thought of as a national hero.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:00 am

On 2004-11-06 22:59, at0m|c wrote:
....Hey tom, the 'they' from your last paragraph can be found anywhere. And to my astonishment, while their deeds seem opposite, they are reaching the same goal. It's them seeding the fear and hatred...

good observation - though it wasn't intended in the first place (in my head the word stood for different groups) it shows a kind of common denominatar or line to trace through many, many groups.

I fully agree to the 'opposite actions - same goal' statement.
While there may be an justified indignation about the GWB firework over Bagdad - I don't have the slightest doubt any Islamistic (not Islamic !) party would to do exactly the same over NY, if capable.

And while the big 'conflicts' and the 'fight of terrorism' rule the news headline, the true reason is that almost anyone accepts violence (at least to some degree) as an applicable tool once his own interests are touched.
It's a sign of the times, like facism was in the 30s of last century.
I'm no exception to this*, but I try to keep control over emotions...

* last summer I was 'attacked' by a young driver intentionally steering his car in my direction while passing me (on the bike, fast downhill). Wouldn't regret the death of this s*cker at all.

cheers, Tom

snoopy4ever · Post by **snoopy4ever** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:14 am

First I'm really sorry about this unnecesary situation Holland is living.., I have good very good and wonderfull friends there.

just historical facts.

It's true the radical islamics are now pointed for their violent actions against western nations.

It's is important to remember extremism is not only an islamic thing.., the US was created by people running away from violence against them (because religion)... and they also started the famous infamous witch hunter in Salem.
In Europe that also happened centuries before Salem.
All in the name of "culture", of "religion" of "civilization".
We are no strangers to that.
It's interesting to see the now "islamic hostage religion" once was the most advanced society regarding science, filosphy and music. In fact they were in Spain for allmost 8 centuries.. a time long enough to wipe out any christian faith on Spain, and maybe south europe, but it did not happend.

Now.., the 19th and early 20th century witnessed the most unnecesary western invasions and conquests around the world, no oil those days.., but all kinds of goods.., so excuses will allways be there. So.., western countries splitted and created new countries in middle east, Africa, America and everywhere.., it's amazing this situation did not started long time ago, in some aspects it has but in a minor scale (the valcans).

Certainly I'm no politician, but sure I know one thing.., violence will allways create more violence. Lots of nations were left poor and helpless.., no wonder Talibans in Afganistan.., and Afganistan does not need invasion but help... sincere help and support.. as well as other nations around the world.

My question here is simple: What do we really get if we build our house as a beautiful castle in a neighborhood of poor hungry people whose pride was take away centuries ago?

Just my opinion.

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:10 pm

This whole terrorism / extreme Islam / whatever else reminds me of the anarchists at the turn of the 20th century. The extremists killed a few kings and presidents in the name of ideological dogma, and everyone started ranting and raving about how the world had changed and was suddenly a dangerous place.

To put this in perspective, here are a few stats from The National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, from 2001:

Total # of deaths in 2001: 157,078.
Motor vehicle deaths: 43,987.
Firearm deaths: 29,573.
Poisoning deaths: 22,242.
Deaths caused by adverse effects from medical care or drugs: 3,021.
Deaths caused by terrorism: 2,926.

The world has not changed, we've just got new doublespeak for everything under the sun. War is now "peacekeeping", siege is now "democracy" or "freedom", Sovereign countries are now "rogue states", and anything bad is "terrorism".

As in: "Last night I went out to dinner and I must have ate something terrorist, I won't be able to make it into work today."

I've read a few articles about Van Gogh (distant cousin of the painter), and it's sad that the world has lost such a provocative and controversial artistic force.

But if every country were to enter a state of emergency every time some lunatic killed a man, then the world would be one giant police state.

No thanks.

Stay calm, don't panic. Terrorism is just a fad. The world has not changed, and we comfortable westerners are still more likely to die being hit by cars than we are to ever experience violent deaths.

Johann

nprime · Post by **nprime** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:00 pm

I think being hit by a car is pretty violent death...

I know that isn't what you mean.

If you don't watch TV or read the newspapers or listen to the radio the world seems pretty O.K.

R

blazesboylan · Post by **blazesboylan** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:21 pm

On 2004-11-08 18:00, nprime wrote:
If you don't watch TV or read the newspapers or listen to the radio the world seems pretty O.K.

Then again, if you do all of those things, but think about what you watch / read / listen to, and look at the world with some historical perspective, then the bubble of prosperity we live in still seems pretty damned comfortable.

I'm not arguing that the world isn't half-mad. This certainly is not a "pretty O.K." world. I'm just saying that nothing major has changed in recent years. We've just got a few new words to excite people's imaginations. Yestercentury we had anarchists and communists and "the Yellow Plague" from China to gnash our teeth about. The same manipulative bigots who started those crazes today want us to believe that Muslims are the new anarchists, the new communists, the new heretical goat f***ers.

I say relax. Don't believe everything the bigots in the press tell you. The world is probably not about to end, and even if it is, one would be better off enjoying one's last few moments rather than cringing in fear or preaching fear or ranting on about how much the world has suddenly changed into a scary place.

Mind you if I was a Muslim living in Iraq right now amid the 100,000 civilians killed in the past 1.5 years, I might think differently.

But I'm not and I don't. My world has not changed in any dramatic way in the past 4 years. Murders happen as they always have. Small groups of crusaders cause hysteria in the media the way they always have. Still I sit here at my computer sipping coffee, and no anarchist, communist, chinaman or "extreme Islamist" has taken my job away from me or brainwashed me or blown me up.

Johann

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 7:25 pm

Traffic accidents are the number one hazard most of us face. It is a shame that we accept this when we could create cars that have computer controls and sonar which would eliminate most deaths and injuries. I am sure that 99% of the deaths are due to driver error and I'm guessing that a lot of those are due to bad drivers. It's a shame that people don't use their brains when considering hazards. A lot of people are afraid to be in a plane but feel perfectly safe driving at a high speed where they are much much more likely to die. The chance of being killed by a terrorist or other bad person is minimal for most people in the world. Our fear of outsiders plays a big role in creating irrational fears. It is a shame that politicians use this fear to gain power rather than address more dangerous threats which could be prevented with all those billions they are throwing at wars.

Post by **hubird** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:33 pm

we should not forget this: if the chance to get a car accident increases exponential by venting confronting opinions in public, it would be a different story.
So you cant compare accident based chances with aimed behaviour.
Political or religious murdering infects that chance tremendously, therefor it affects all of us, as we wanne live in a democracy.

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-11-09 21:36 ]

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:43 am

On 2004-11-08 19:21, blazesboylan wrote:
I'm just saying that nothing major has changed in recent years. We've just got a few new words to excite people's imaginations. Yestercentury we had anarchists and communists and "the Yellow Plague" from China to gnash our teeth about.

I'm sure many people shared these views in 1938.

Sometimes things DO change. The trick is being able to see it.

fra77x · Post by **fra77x** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:23 am

i don't want to ruin the conversation but here it is... What has really changed is that we now have United states in the role of Germany... That we call imperialism (you know that old habit to occupy new regions so to expand your power),liberation. There are also some things (like the relation between god and Bush) brought to us from very very long ago (4500 years) what is your opinion on that?

[ This Message was edited by: fra77x on 2004-11-10 02:45 ]

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:40 am

Although it's quite popular to see the US as imperialists for oil etc (although at $50/barrel that's not working too well), but there are other views.

One is that this is part of a process to bring democracy to the middle east.

This might seem absurd at first, but then the fascist / militaristic pre-war Japanese state was defeated and "democratised" by the US in this way and seems to have been a huge success.

In fact the pacific war trigger was a US oil embargo on Japan, something often debated as a very provocative move by the US at the time.

But the end result (after 4 years) was that the slaughterous horror in China came to an halt, the Japanese fascists were defeated and a stable, prosperous and democratic state created. At the time there was incredible doubt that such a state could ever be created in Japan.

I'm not using this to justify the current campaigns, only to point out that in the sweep of 5 or 10 or 20 years such bloody campaigns can bring about sustained good.

Is it worth it ? Is this the case in this situation ? Is this even close to the truth ?

I wouldn't have a clue.

I don't think many people have enough information on the behind-the-scenes intelligence to know even a fraction of the real causes and motivations.