Stupid Mixer Tricks: Automating SFP Mixers from SX

six_wax · Post by **six_wax** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 3:46 pm

I've seen a number of threads complaining about the sound quality of the SX summing bus. Word on the street is, SFP or external mixers are generally preferable for the actual mixing... So, I was trying to come up with a way to continue to manage my "mixing" work in SX [which has fantastic automation facilities], but have the actual mixing math done externally.

** Here's what I worked out:

If you are using SX as your DAW and "classic" SFP mode, you can use the graphical automation facilities of SX to control the SFP Mixers! Here's how:

1. Setup enough ASIO outputs such that there's a 1-to-1 mapping of SX mixer channels to ASIO outs to SFP Mixer ins --you're just bussing all the tracks from SX into SFP

2. SX is your multitrack; send the outputs of each channel to the corresponding output bus. Use the Sends to select the bus, max the Send level, and click the Pre-Fader button.

3. Now, setup a Generic Remote in SX such that the SX mixer fades and pans are responding to MIDI cc's on a certain channel. If you select an *output* for the Generic Remote, these controls will also send! So select one of the CW software MIDI ports

4. In SFP connect the selected MIDI port to the SFP mixer. Train the pans and fades to respond to the MIDI ccs setup in SX. Note that you can also map *any* of the SX mixer controls to MIDI ccs, so you can also automate the SFP mixer eqs, sends, etc... If you're doing the eqs, you can avoid actually effecting the sound in SX by leaving the EQ channels *off* and just remoting the knob movements --be creative!

5. Make sure to save your Generic Remote and SFP mixer setups so you don't have to do the annoying setup again...

6. Now, for whatever SX mixer parameters you have setup in the Generic Remote, you can use the graphic automation facilities in the SX project widow. If you've setup the Generic Remote correctly, and connected & MIDI trained your SFP mixer, you can now draw/edit/see the automation curves in SX project window & use all the other facilities of SX automation --to control SFP!

Obviously, one could also use this setup to automate an external hardware mixer from SX...

** Or you can do both!

7. Since you can fork the midi stream coming out of the CW soft MIDI port, you can also send this mixer MIDI-control signal to an external mixer or controller. Similarly, you can drive the *input* of the Generic Remote from the output of the hardware mixer/controller...

You get the picture. Enjoy!

[btw-- this was a revelation to me. if it's obvious to you seasoned salty vets, why are you still reading? :]

alfonso · Post by **alfonso** » Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:53 am

Great! i've got to try it!

snoopy4ever · Post by **snoopy4ever** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:10 am

Is that also possible with cubase VST 5.x??

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Tue Dec 17, 2002 1:48 pm

Yes. Exactly the same remote config.

brain1 · Post by **brain1** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:57 am

very good post

valis · Post by **valis** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 10:58 am

Watch your phase in SFP...

siberiansun · Post by **siberiansun** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 12:39 pm

great! so how would one do this in logic 5.*?
come on all you logic-midi-headz, think!!
(me, i just suck at this whole midi-editing deal

)

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:38 pm

Use the Phase Fix

ds-sound · Post by **ds-sound** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 9:02 am

Great, Great, Great Idea!

Some notes, though:

1. Some of my projects consists of over 100 channels. It's obviously impossible to rout them all to the mixer via ASIO indevidually.

2. ASIO channels consumes DSP power. There's not much logic in routing to a mixer that has no effects to use (no room for them...).

I usually mix some of the elements under SX, and send them to several ASIO dest' as groups. If all that varies is the Volume and Pan, there's no real need to use the Pulasr for that matter. Let the cpu handle it this time...

But either way - thanks for the useful tip! Is there a way to post a file with all the settings, rather than starting all over again ourselves?

yours,
ds-sound

rodos1979 · Post by **rodos1979** » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:42 am

Hello to all!

This sounds as a good idea. I have automated the Volume and Pan faders in SX and STM2448, so one "listens" to the other.
You can download a preset of the STM2448 and a Generic Remote of SX that work with each other at http://www.geocities.com/rodos1979/pulsar.html

Thank you

[ This Message was edited by: rodos1979 on 2003-02-11 06:43 ]

Marc de Ruiter · Post by **Marc de Ruiter** » Mon Feb 24, 2003 12:09 pm

In reply to siberiansuns question:
I managed to synchonize automation of the 2448 by Logic 4.71 Audioobjects this way.
Set the amount of busses to 16. This can be done in the Audiodriver dialogbox. Make sure your audio environment has 16 returns. In the audioconfigurationwindow set the outputs of the bus 1 to output 1-2, bus 2 to ouput 3-4 etc...Then set in each Audiotrack object the output to no output. Then set the sent of ch1 to bus 1 at 0 db, set the sent of ch2 to bus 2 at 0 db etc.. Fadermoves of the Audiotrack object now don't effect the audiopath anymore. Then pull the midi out of Audiotrack 1 to a transformer object that changes the incomming midichannel 1 controller 7 data to whatever you set for fader 1 in the 2448. Repeat this process for each channel. Now every fader move in Logic will also be done by the corresponding fader on the 2448. Hope this gives you an idee.
Regards,

Marc

[ This Message was edited by: Marc de Ruiter on 2003-02-24 12:11 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Marc de Ruiter on 2003-02-24 12:14 ]

SAnd · Post by **SAnd** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:20 pm

Excuse me...
but I don't understand how it' s possible to control the SFP mixer Eq:
"...you can also map *any* of the SX mixer controls to MIDI ccs, so you can also automate the SFP mixer eqs, sends, etc... ".
Maybe I'm wrong...

catman2u · Post by **catman2u** » Thu May 08, 2003 10:09 am

Logic synched automaition, ver 1.0 (preliminary) (no, not really working at all. sorry)

-------------
edited: sorry, this is not z EZ Z i thought.. lol

(joke's on me)
thing is, logic has a single midi channel assigned to each audio fader, whilh in luna you have to use this ONE channel for everything on the mixer. silly

there IS a workaround, using a transforemr, but it is WAY to complicated for me to go in to now.
anyway, the following explenation still stands, for automating, err, hmm. well a single channel @ a time ?
(sad smile)

u figure we could ask creamware to help us by supporting multi-channel midi per instrument ? aka each strip in the mixer can respond to a diff. midi channel ?

----------------------
well, haven't relly gone in to this, but some one here asked so:
in Logic, wire each channel (I used the busses for testing) to the luna midi thing.
(open the enviroment. locate "audio" layer, locate the requested track,
CTRL+click the wire icon at the top of that track, choose your luna "midi in".
for this to realy work, use one Luna in for hardware MIDI, and one for internal synching of the mixers or any other luna devices. well, u don't HAVE to use it this way, but of course the routing in Luna must plug the input from Logic into whatever device u wish to automate.
next, it's just a matter of making luna learn which signals Logic sends.
if you HAVE to, you can remap CCs in logic using a transformer on the way but no need.

I didn't get 2 way full sync to work yet, and I have no need for that anyway, but thing is I don't know how to make Logic's faders rock to the luna's beat - whn u move a fader on SFP how to have logic record / reflect that.
I know it CAN be done using a proper enviroment, but no point in it for me so far.

in Logic, u can send a track directly to a bus only, no master outs, using the flip-menu where in now says "output" or whatever it says. this means u don't have to set levels or anything - just route the track to the needed bus, and it's in Luna's bus, automated via BUS automation in logic.
err, you could also make this happen so that the tracks 1-32 in logic control the coresponding tracks in luna and skip the busses all together, I guess. hmm. didn't try.

anyway, any word about logic's mixer bus sound quality ? is it considered, err, good ?

cheers etc,
-Shay

[ This Message was edited by: catman2u on 2003-05-08 11:31 ]

catman2u · Post by **catman2u** » Thu May 08, 2003 2:46 pm

Ended up using it as a giant master volume control though: just added a huge slide to my screenset, which only controls the SFP's mixer master. this way i don't have to flip out of logic to adjust monitoring volume.

SevenString · Post by **SevenString** » Thu May 15, 2003 1:32 pm

as an added idea, I can picture doing something like grouping my various elements (for instance drums) and routing the stereo result of a group to a stereo SFP channel for overall compression/reverb/whatever and mixing.

this way, the individual channel levels and EQ (snare, kick, etc.) could be set in SX before routing.

this would have the added benefit of striking a nice balance between hardware DSP and native CPU processing, since the hardware platform is only dealing with summed groups, and not dozens of individual tracks.

schulz · Post by **schulz** » Mon May 19, 2003 3:16 pm

Is there a way to setup the samplitude mixer that it remotes the SFP mixer ?

dehuszar · Post by **dehuszar** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:57 am

Resurrecting an old thread here... I have a few midi controllers and figured it was time to put together a set of SFP Mixer Presets which match a Generic Remote in SX.

While I think I've devised a good system here, I'm not so sure about a few things and as the Generic Remote mapping is so damn tedious, and as it's too late for me to go through most of the leg work, I thought I'd ask a quick question here in case someone else has already figured them out.

If I'm routing my midi messages to the Cubase mixer, then re-routing those messages back out to the SFP mixers, aren't I effectively doubling the effect of mapped fader?

I mean, if the Cubase VST mixer fader one is controlling the 1st channel of an STM mixer, than isn't the Cubase channel acting as a trim adjust WHILE the volume of the CW mixer is being adjusted as well? Or does the fact that the midi is being sent to an output FROM the Cubase mixer bypass the internal audio engine?

...or is there some other button or something to do the job? I just feel like I'd be doubling the sensitivity of any action and would risk blowing my ear drums out accidentally doing a volume sweep.

Also, instead of trying to cram as much functionality into a small amount of cc's using the 2448, or 4896, I decided to use two STM 1632s, one for ASIO channels, and one for CWA instruments. That way I can keep my channel configs the same regardless of whether I'm only using 2 CW channels and 15 ASIO channels (or reverse), plus I can spread the cc load across 2 channels.

Now here's where the next question comes in.

I've got the 4 auxes of each going into 2 MicroMixers. Aux 1-2 of each 1632-> MMixer1 channels 1-4, Aux 3-4 of each-> MMixer2 channels 1-4. I've got each Micro panned hard left & right in pairs so they sum properly into the 1st 4 channels of an Aux Rack (which gets it's own midi channel). The returns then go to each mixer simultaneously. Obviously I've got the phase lock engaged at all stages.

My concern is that I feel like I'm going to run into problems with the Aux channels overlapping with like channels on the 2nd mixer. I'm experienced in a lot of areas, but internal routings of mixers, FX, and synths are not among those areas (I keep telling myself I'll learn Modular one of these days

). Can anyone confirm or disconfirm that suspicion before I go Generic Remote mapper crazy?

Thanks in advance,
Sam.

p.s. I'd be happy to post a screen captures of my SFP routing and Mixer ScreenSets if someone can confirm that it's okay to just paste a jpg into a message. I don't have time to set up an FTP server to anchor-tag to.

Yoch · Post by **Yoch** » Sun May 08, 2005 6:19 am

In your case,Rodos1979, gain changes both with pulsar and nuendo faders. How can I disable changing gain by nuendo faders?

next to nothing · Post by **next to nothing** » Sun May 08, 2005 9:32 am

oh and to post pictures you can use a service like this, no need to se tup ftp.

http://www.freeimagehosting.net

Best regards,
piddi

[ This Message was edited by: piddi on 2005-05-08 10:33 ]

lovenara · Post by **lovenara** » Thu Jun 09, 2005 10:33 am

hi
use to try that great sound but problem is
Sx can't export all of other bus into one wave ,except the masterbus
So i have to open another sound recorder like
samplitude to reocrd all the outs?
thnx