Mastering - Too Quiet...

ds-sound · Post by **ds-sound** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 5:31 pm

Hello, I have a Sound related question for all you Mastering experts. I'm not sure this is the right forum for this, but I can't find a better one, so please excuse me if I off-topic.

this is my problem:

I've finished to mix one of my recording projects, and even 'mastered' it (I wish).
I'm pleased with the final product: The balance is good, the panning is great, The voclas are hiss free, the mix sits on all frequencies and everything is crystal clear.

BUT...

When I play my song next to a commercial song, the overall 'volume', 'loudness' or 'energy' is much quieter, And I must push the volume button to make their levels sound the same.

The soundwave looks good and healthy, 'kissing' the 0db and solid during the entire piece. I've already used a limiter and a compressor, and pushed the ratio to the max. If I'll lower it any more, It'll squash the sound to death.

Any suggestion how to gain extra energy without crapping up the mix?

Thanks,
ds-sound

_________________
["...and yet I always fail to notice, that I'm still heading for the ground..."]

[ This Message was edited by: ds-sound on 2003-01-09 17:34 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:02 pm

Now that's difficult. By EQ'ing and compressing each channel optimally, you'll gain some dB.

Or let's say you got a 15Hz sub which you don't hear, it does take up lots of energy. Cutting or shelving subs might give more headroom.

This is part of art of mixing and producing, and it's not exactly the most easy part. Try comparing frequency analysis, ...

oops got to go now, it's urgent.

borg · Post by **borg** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:21 pm

it's important to know how you are comparing your tunes to the commercial ones. did you burn a cd? and do you a/b compare on the same media?
if you're playing your songs via pulsar, i think that it's just normal that your material sounds quiter (someone correct me if i'm wrong, but i think you need a 'plus' card to get a higher output level out of pulsar).
and remember: a commercial product nearly always gets the pro master treatment before release.

and yes, at0mic is right. mixing is an art on itself, i must regretfully aknowledge

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Thu Jan 09, 2003 7:19 pm

I went in a pro mastering studio a few weeks ago, probably the major one in Montreal, and the engineer told me that one of the major drawbacks of home mastering is this:
In every studio there are frequencies which are either too loud or too weak and those create unbalance in the mix, because one tends to boost the weak freqs and cut the over present ones. So imagine this: When you mix, you compensate for your room's freq unbalance, and if you master in the same room, you compensate a second time, so it gets even worse...
At the studio, we listened to my cd in the mastering room and the guys immediately told me which frequencies were problematic in my system. So I suggest that you find a good mastering facility in your area and go there with your CD, presenting yourself as a potential client. They probably will be able to help you very much and find the weaknesses in 1 or 2 minutes, if they are competent.

Hope that it helps...

Post by **garyb** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:41 am

it's all about eq and dynamics(compression).......the better the listening environment,the better the results.(after experience sets in)

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2003-01-10 02:42 ]

at0m · Post by **at0m** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:20 am

Eliam, you make a very good point there. One guy recently told me to try to never mix and master in the same room. Just because of the reasons you give there.

ReD_MuZe · Post by **ReD_MuZe** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 9:42 am

that was me

yes, Never mix and master at the same room, and even more, never master your own music!

you should reach a point where your mix is loud enough, where you dont have too much transients or subs in it.

good mixes dont need harsh proccessing!!!!
remember that!

its your job to mix so good that the max youll need to do to them, is L2 a bitsy bit to get rid of excessive headroom and dither it into 16 bits.
if the mix is still too quiet, fix the mix!

mastering should not be like cement on the mix thather than just a gloss..

profetional studios use analog gear to master and Xpensive digital outboard.

[ This Message was edited by: ReD_MuZe on 2003-01-11 09:44 ]

ds-sound · Post by **ds-sound** » Sat Jan 11, 2003 10:17 am

Thanks for your quick and helpful replies.

I compared my final product to the commercial song simply by switching between them using the 'Switch-It' pulsar device. Both of them are MP3s played by Winamp on the same speakers, at the same room where I recorded, mixed and 'mastered' (*cough*) the song.

Perhaps it really is wrong to mix and master under the same conditions, but unfortunately I'm affraid that dragging my equipment to the living-room/kitchen/parking-lot or buying an extra studio is not really an option.

All subs (<50hz) have already been cut out during the mastering process, using a 48db highpass filter, but I might be facing this problem due to excessive bass presence that's possibly being 'erased' due to bad studio acustics.

The bottom line, I think, is that the mix needs to be seriously modified, even though it's currently pleasing. I'll tweak the bass-guitar compressor, EQ the vocals again, and soft the distortions a little bit.

A good mix sure is the main goal, but Mastering tricks are much more tempting, you must admit! Everytime I load Final-Liza I'm amazed by the so-called "Make-The-Sound-Good" button!

Thanks,
ds-sound

p.s.
Is there some sort of a PlanetZ-FTP directory, where we can publish *playable* examples, in order to give a better idea about the discussed sound-issues?

_________________
["...and yet I always fail to notice, that I'm still heading for the ground..."]

[ This Message was edited by: ds-sound on 2003-01-11 10:18 ]

kensuguro · Post by **kensuguro** » Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:17 am

depends alot on your source material I think. Especially hardware synths cause lots of peaking for no good reason.. and some times reverb can do that also. Compressing, and then gaining too much can also cause pointless peaks.. In my opinion, mixes that are done to sound LOUD, aren't exacly quite as dynamic and complex. In other words, they're not spectrally dynamic. The energy is concentrated into critical bands, and fools the brain into thinking the sound is loud. It's all about distribution of energy.

One key factor about making a loud tune, is try to use as little instruments as possible. The loudest hiphop tracks only use 4-5 tracks. The more tracks, the more you have to think about which track fills which part of the spectrum. EQ so that no 2 tracks use the same part of the spectrum. That way, everyone can go at peak energy, without being affected by the contents of the other tracks. I think that's the basic gimmick. You tracks will sound clearer that way anyway. (not too much masking)

There's also a thread about mastering in the study forum if you want to check it out. But keep in mind that no one answer is good for all. Everyone has his own way of doing it, cuz everyone is in a different situation.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:42 pm

First of all I always try to listen to my music on as many different sound systems as possible before letting anyone else hear it. I often find there are one or two sounds that are way too loud or too soft on some systems. I also agree it's not good to master your own material or mix your own material either if you can help it. My tracks never seem to come out as loud as the music I buy. I figure it wasn't properly mastered or mixed. I don't think software is as good as hardware. If you can afford it, it's better to mix down in a nice pro studio with a great engineer and send it off to a pro mastering studio with a great reputation for mastering. Of course all that gets expensive. The nice thing about computers though is you can go right into the studio to mix rather than wasting a lot of time and money recording there. I figure I could get a fairly good mix of an average length track in 4 hours if I am very organized about it.

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:42 pm

I'm really not a mastering guru, and this topic is very complex ...
After mixing I activate the STW hard-knee mastering comp in the master channel, and the loudness grows astonishing! Otherwise, this comp does not kill the dynamics. If you take care with adjusting the treshold (in proportion to the character of the music -3 to -6 dB) you can't make big mistakes.
Should be a tip from beginner to beginner.
Good mix, Thomas

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:04 pm

Yes I should get that? How much is it? I'm too lazy to do the conversion.

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:49 pm

No braincell, I would never give such tips to a "Pulsar disciple"! Forgive me!!! PLEASE!!!!!

Only for anybody who feels like a beginner, ok?

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:45 am

This seems as expensive as hardware! Can I send you my music and have you run it though for me?

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:44 pm

Braincell, because of my terrible English I fear that I misunderstood you! Did you say, that you don't own the Sonic Timeworks Pulsar Plugins? I bought them immediately when they were new on the software market (special offer: half price).
And if you like it, send you raw mixes to me and I try to compress it (if we send CDs, I would try some different adjustments with your music).
If you like the result, you could think about buying the STW plugs. I like them.

Greetz, Thomas

If you want to send me a CD, I'll send you a private message with my address.

[ This Message was edited by: Herr Voigt on 2003-02-16 16:46 ]

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 11:53 pm

Thank you very much.

kimgr · Post by **kimgr** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:03 am

There are demo versions of the plugins available on http://sonictimeworks.com

Kim.

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:31 am

If I owned this effect I would master everyone's music for free so they wouldn't have to buy it. I have DSL so uploading and downloading tracks to my computer is not a problem. The price of this item is intensely ludicrous! We need to organize and do this.

Herr Voigt · Post by **Herr Voigt** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:39 pm

Lucky man, you have DSL! I live in a region where no DSL is possible. But in summer I'll move to another theatre, another town and try to get DSL too.
Slow greetz, Thomas

braincell · Post by **braincell** » Tue Feb 18, 2003 8:59 pm

Good luck with that move and the DSL. We have a lot of choices here. I had a better experience with Cable than DSL but the DSL is good now. I think cable is generally more trouble free.