It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

The Sonic Core XITE hardware platform for Scope

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valis
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It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by valis »

Hello you lot.

I have a unit here that I'll be testing shortly, and then will be building a new rig, and kitting that machine up.

My main usage in mind will be to explore some of the usages that SpaceF and others have put it to, alongside some of our fave modular bit including Flexor. I still find the real-time usage of Scope to be an advantage in so many ways, but could not trust my PCI cards in mobile format for a while now. So that's exciting! If you'll excuse the awful pun.

I want to make the computer and audio rack (whether the same or separate) vibrationally isolated for road use as well, so I'll be looking at racks in cases that have the requisite internal isolation bits before I do more than a local test experience. I'll need to consider computer rack spacing vs. audio of course as well, and would also enjoy something I can setup and use with ease, and can similarly place back in the studio quickly.

At present, I have a handful of older 3U computer racks in storage from probably a decade ago. I also have a few old battery backups which are massive and heavy, but I can source the replacement batteries for and so they might be worth some road usage. I'm not necessarily sold on using the backup units for too long, so planning a new setup could involve dropping all of that depending on how long it takes me to gather everything.

So I'll document that side of things as Jimmy once did, so that others can have it for reference in other usages that are similar.

In return, I'm also open to a quick primer on what I should learn to get the differences down between Xite and Scope. Some of that will be in the manual, but I'll be needing to play catch-up on the technical issues we have documented here as well. I'm willing to compile as much of this as I can to either here, the site front-end, or both as well in exchange for any help given here.
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astroman
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by astroman »

Not sure if it fits this context, but I‘ll take the opportunity to explain my own decision against an Xite.
(which I could have afforded due to lucky circumstances recently - and I deeply regret my non SC supportive purchase of a bunch of 2nd hand cards)
I like the „old stuff“, in particular by John Bowen and Adern a lot and expected it to be restricted to the 6 compatibility Sharcs of the Xite (according to what I‘ve read).
Essentially this meant 3 times the DSP power (3 Pulsar II cards) for a small fraction of the Xite’s price tag.

I would have liked the modern hardware, too... and frequently ask myself: how long will these cards survive ?
But since 20 year old gear literally piles up here, I additionally invested in some repair and measurement tools.
I already re-capped several of my vintage broadcast modules and overhauled an MPC4000 (completely disassembled and built up again), hence few activities from my side here.

I might be completely wrong with my assumptions, but fundamental differences between old and new Sharcs are hard to be ignored.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by Bud Weiser »

astroman wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:23 pm ...

I like the „old stuff“, in particular by John Bowen and Adern a lot and expected it to be restricted to the 6 compatibility Sharcs of the Xite (according to what I‘ve read).
I own PCI cards across 2 machines and XITE-1 and I own almost every ZARG device, Zarg RD II modules as also Adern FleXor III and many 3rd party devices from the past.
On XITE-1,- NONE of the old devices run striktly on the 6 "compatibility" 60MHz SHARC processors (except VDat, ASIO and MIDI,- all on DSP #1 and #2).
The other 4 seem to be busy w/ routing-, distribution- and sync tasks across XITE-1´s 4 DSP-array slots and the 12 333MHz Sharcs sitting in these slots.
You see when loading devices and look at DSP meter (%) and async display.
And you can manually place devices on dedicated chips on demand while SCOPE optimizes DSP assignment even more when loading the same project next time.
You won´t lose DSP power and SCOPE v7 already optimized automatic DSP assignment and DSP off-load.

The smaller ZARG devices run well on XITE,- especially S|C labeled Zarg Ambient v3, Orion Custom v3, DarkStar v3 as also ProWave and Pro One.
When you currently get a problem, it´s because a patch uses a sample.
Using samples is causing most issues in SCOPE 64Bit and is NOT hardware related.

The other are somewhat overkill for every SCOPE system and don´t run much better on PCI cards, especially when it comes to voicecount/polyphony.
I don´t see this is Sonic Core´s mistake.

I´m using Zarg Quantum Wave SE,- the smaller version of Quantum Wave,- on PCI cards, Scope v7 32Bit.
It is better because it consumates less SAT connections,- but it isn´t a real good deal better when it comes to polyphony.

I´d say, it doesn´t make sense not to buy a XITE-1 because ancient biggest ZARG synths don´t run perfect on XITE-1.
They can´t,- because they were developed before XITE-1 was released ad John Bowen never owned and used a XITE-1 for developements.

Adern FleXor III runs well on XITE-1 and across the modulars, only a few patches caused crashes because there are a very few modules using samples or need the host computer´s RAM otherwise and in 64Bit systems.

In fact most reported issues are related to 64Bit systems and Scope devices using host computer RAM.
This isn´t a XITE hardware issue at all.

I have a Pulsar-2 and Pulsar-2 SRB left over and plan using ´em in an older computer just only for these,- 32Bit SCOPE 4.5 p.ex..

Other reported issues are software related and should be fixable,- WHEN required manpower and time allows.
astroman wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:23 pm I would have liked the modern hardware, too... and frequently ask myself: how long will these cards survive ?
But since 20 year old gear literally piles up here, I additionally invested in some repair and measurement tools.
I already re-capped several of my vintage broadcast modules and overhauled an MPC4000 (completely disassembled and built up again), hence few activities from my side here.
I´m doin´ the same since about Y2K.
Gear repairs and service are a good thing for natural environment as also for youself.
Just work w/ what you have and as long as possible.
Old gear often seems to be limited compared to the latest/greatest,- but creativity benefits from limitations.
astroman wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:23 pm I might be completely wrong with my assumptions, but fundamental differences between old and new Sharcs are hard to be ignored.
When buying XITE,- keep at least 1 machine running PCI cards and SCOPE 32Bit (SCOPE 5.1 prefered) and do that until 64Bit SCOPE v7 bugs will be fixed.

:)

Bud

P-S.:
I edited this post because I was wrong w/ the STS samplers DSP assignment.
Last edited by Bud Weiser on Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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astroman
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by astroman »

Thanks for this extensive, yet compact explanation... excellent.
Looks like I got a couple of things wrong, but the current state is an improvement anyway - let‘s what the future brings... :D
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by dante »

Bud Weiser wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:15 am
The only Scope devices running on 60MHz "compatibility" SHARCs exclusively seem to be STS samplers and VDat.

Bud
So you can run STS on XITE by assign to old DSP ? Any issue w/- poly or version of STS (3000, 4000, 5000 etc) ?
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by yayajohn »

To add to Bud's reply:
With V7 all of the stock synths have been optimized on the Xite to automatically spread the DSP's on the same DSP channel. I was able to load all of the synths at the same time and ran them up to their maximum poly. (that will make you smile when you try that)
Note: Six String is locked to 8 voices max.
Right now there is a bug with the BNC. I was able to get mine to work with Xite in sync mode but YMMV.

Also I don't think the STS work very well with 64bit. I can get mine to work sometimes but it will inevitably crash.
I have never tried the Xite on a 32 bit system.
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by nebelfuerst »

I run Xite on Win7/32, as there is less trouble with my other audio SW compared to 64bit. ( Although some companies only provide 64bit for later updates.)
The STS gives me an error on load and it looks like a unfunctional device.
Is there some magic to make STS work ?
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by Bud Weiser »

dante wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:11 pm
So you can run STS on XITE by assign to old DSP ? Any issue w/- poly or version of STS (3000, 4000, 5000 etc) ?
In my post above, I´m wrong w/ the STS samplers DSP assignment,- sorry.
In fact, on XITE-1, they have to go to dedicated DSPs which are NOT the old 60MHz SHARCs.
Typing from my head,- I think it was DSP #7 - DSP #10,- these are for loading non optimized mixers and samplers.

But the STS samplers don´t work in 64Bit anyway as also not perfect in Scope 7 32Bit.
They worked better in Scope 5.1 32Bit on my former Win XP DAW machine.

:)

Bud
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by Bud Weiser »

nebelfuerst wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:24 am I run Xite on Win7/32, as there is less trouble with my other audio SW compared to 64bit. ( Although some companies only provide 64bit for later updates.)
The STS gives me an error on load and it looks like a unfunctional device.
Is there some magic to make STS work ?
STS run best in SCOPE v4 / 4.5 / 5.0 and 5.1 ... 32Bit !

:)

Bud
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by Bud Weiser »

yayajohn wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:51 am To add to Bud's reply:
With V7 all of the stock synths have been optimized on the Xite to automatically spread the DSP's on the same DSP channel. I was able to load all of the synths at the same time and ran them up to their maximum poly. (that will make you smile when you try that)
Note: Six String is locked to 8 voices max.
How did you do that ?
What does "all of the synths" mean ? Which synths exactly ?
Did you load ´em into your project in a specific squential order ? If yes,- which sequential order ?
How does your project look like for this test and before you load any of the synths ?
At which point did you max out voices for each of the synths ? After you loaded ´em all, then max out voices in that sequential order you used for loading ´em all,- or max out voices for every synth when being loaded and then load the next, max out voices ... and so on ?
yayajohn wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:51 am I have never tried the Xite on a 32 bit system.
Scope/XITE v5.1 32Bit on Win XP worked very well and stable for me and even Zarg Comb Plus Pro worked w/ MIDI program changes, which it doesn´t in Scope v7 32 and 64Bit and in Win 7 Pro x96 and x64.
But the load time of Scope projects was very slow because the only PCIe x1 slot on my ASUS P5WD2 Premium mobo was PCIe 1.0 or 1.1 standard.
Scope v7 project load time in Win7 Pro SP1 x64 on AsRock Z97 is lightyears ahead even I use the older XITE PCIe card w/ lockable DVI connector.
I guess the currently available PCIe card is a step up and faster again,- possibly PCIe v2.0.

:)

Bud
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by yayajohn »

:oops: No not quite all of them at once, you will hit your DSP limit for sure but my point is that you can go right to 16 voices on all of them without SAT connections and DSP optimizations and that is huge amount of voices.
Did you try it Bud? I hit my DSP limit at about 7-8 all at 16 voices and the rest were less.
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by valis »

Good information so far, thanks. Most of this can remain here as it's very anecdotal, and I'll link to this with any new threads created.
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by Bud Weiser »

yayajohn wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:57 pm Did you try it Bud? I hit my DSP limit at about 7-8 all at 16 voices and the rest were less.
"I hit my DSP limit at about 7-8" means what ?

7-8 segments on the vertival DSP meter or,-

only DSPs #7 and #8 reach SAT connection limit (Async 100%) while the other DSPs show less than 100% Async?


I will try the test once I got more details from you (also see below),-

So, you say:
Load all the stock synths coming w/ Scope v7 as also optional S|C synths,- ProTone, Prodyssey and Sixstring,- at the same time, then maxing out voices ´til the cows come home ?

Which I/Os and mixer are in the project and been loaded 1st ?
Did you wire synth outputs to the mixer inputs (if there is any mixer at all) or to physical SCOPE outputs (analog, AES or ADAT/Z-Link) as also MIDI source(s),- 5-Pin DIN or Seq-MIDI Src, to synth´s MIDI Ins ?

I´m asking these questions because I´ve found one of your pics on my machine, documenting a similar test.
But looks different from what you described above,-

yayajohn_XiteV7MAX.JPG
yayajohn_XiteV7MAX.JPG (415.82 KiB) Viewed 2843 times

I cannot test Sixstring because I don´t own a key for XITE as also not for PCI.
I´m using Sixstring on my Noah EX wired via ADAT-Out to XITE-1.

:)

Bud
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by yayajohn »

Sorry Bud, I'm not explaining myself very well.
My point is really that with Scope version 7, the allocation of resources was greatly improved (just my observation)
When you load a synth and select 16 voices it is not going to fit on one DSP so Scope will automatically spread the load to other DSP's (you know this already) But before Version 7 on the Xite there was a lot of optimization/SAT windows popping up. Now Scope 7 will spread the DSP load to the 3 DSP's in each SAT channel. (see the Minimax example) The 3rd party synths do not seem to be able to do that but there may be some I've overlooked.
The test I did was load all of the stock synths (not Six String sorry I forgot that isn't stock but Protone and Prodyssey will do 16 voices too)), then run each one up to it's max voices until you reach your DSP limit. (when your DSP meter gets close to the end it will start asking for optimizations but shouldn't until that point)
DSPAllocation.jpg
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valis
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by valis »

Certainly looks more powerful than my 6 dsp card rig.

So, avoid samplers and sample osc modules as well. I'll have to read through the pinned posts this fall as I learn the unit.
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by flux »

great discussion guys, and congrats to valis on the Xite ! :)

the screenshots are very helpful, that's an extremely impressive amount of real-time dsp power !

very useful points about the Zarg synths being developed before Xite and so understandably optimisation is different.

if anyone 's able to post similar screenshots as above with Solaris 5 and other big Zarg synths, it would be greatly appreciated..would be great to know how many instances of Solaris 5 can be run before hitting a dsp allocation limit
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by Bud Weiser »

yayajohn wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 5:51 am Sorry Bud, I'm not explaining myself very well.
My point is really that with Scope version 7, the allocation of resources was greatly improved (just my observation)
When you load a synth and select 16 voices it is not going to fit on one DSP so Scope will automatically spread the load to other DSP's (you know this already) But before Version 7 on the Xite there was a lot of optimization/SAT windows popping up. Now Scope 7 will spread the DSP load to the 3 DSP's in each SAT channel. (see the Minimax example) The 3rd party synths do not seem to be able to do that but there may be some I've overlooked.
The test I did was load all of the stock synths (not Six String sorry I forgot that isn't stock but Protone and Prodyssey will do 16 voices too)), then run each one up to it's max voices until you reach your DSP limit. (when your DSP meter gets close to the end it will start asking for optimizations but shouldn't until that point)
Thank you, this is insane !
I made a PDF incl. your pics and will try over the weekend.

:)

Bud
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Re: It seems I will be joining the Xited side of the force after all

Post by spacef »

I had a post about overcoming sat limitations but can't find it.
- Basically, when you reach a SAT limit, it is often possible to load more by overcoming this sat limit:
- The following is only for Xite. It will not do anything in Scope PCI.

1/ you save your project after removing the device that is big or might cause the sat limit.
2/ then save this project AS DEFAULT and exit scope, and restart it. Just loading the project again from the scope window will not work, you must totally exit and restart scope (this seems to "flush" so deep memory about sat connection, that still exist somewhere in xite's memory (if you reload the same device without exiting Wite, it should replace that same device onto those same connections that are somewhere inside Xite memory. So you must flush this 100%, by exiting scope completely).

3/ then load that device that you removed, and let scope place it according to its best bet.

4/ the difficulty is to choose which device to unload/reload. This may lead to a few trials/errors.
The SAT connections that are missing are either inputs or outputs: you may reach a point when you know this (again, by trial and error) which may help knowing which device might be the best to remove/reload. I don't have a rule for this, you just know it at some point after having tried stuff that change nothing.

You can also try to place manually on a certain DSP, it might work, but it may also just "move the problem" to another DSP. It might help temporarily or in certain projhects, but in general, I let xite do its placement of stuff as it can, if it can. and I find the unload/reload method much more powerful in terms of "breaking the first limit". of course, at some point, there is nothing more to optimize. Your project is full, and that's it.

Anyway, this worked for me 90% of the time, even though there is a point where a device cannot be loaded, either because it is too big or has tons of sat connections anyway (big can be because of polyphony, as it loads internal modules as many times as the voice count). But in general, it allowed me to more than double the dsp usage in comparison to not doing the above procedure (EDIT: I meant that I 've been able to load much more than without, ie, the "double dsp" thing is not scientifically accurate ... it depends on how much dsp was previously in use, lol :-) ) .

For synths with inserts, some FX such as multitap chous (4T chorus and/or Hexa chorus if I remember well) can cause an extra DSP/Sat error that seems due to that effect (other effect work fine). It means that dynamic stuff inside a device (fx or dynamic routing/switches etc) can cause errors, and in this case, the best is to remove that effect and replace it with something else.

The biggest is the device, and the quicker it will reach sat/dsp limits , which is normal. In this case, no need to struggle, compose, save presets, record in DAW, then work on the next phase...

I hope it helps.
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