PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Would be a 19" rack mount made by S|C which would house the old PCI cards ( eg up to 3 ) and interface by TB3. Goodbye to those dodgy DIY boxes with throughput issues.

Id buyed one and press my 3 cards back into service no probs.

Possibly required S|C designing and and manufacturing their own (computer-) mainboard,- no ?
Might not be worth the trouble because they´d need to produce a very large quantity of these to make ´em affordable.
And all that for old discontinued cards ...
I don´t think they won´t even think about it.



Bud

Yeah, is there anything better than those Magma's these days ?

dante wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 5:15 pm Yeah, is there anything better than those Magma's these days ?

I doubt there is.

For SCOPE PCI, I believe it´s best looking for old computers (socket 775, P4 dual core, Core2Duo) for cheap, run Win7 x86 and use latest SCOPE standalone w/ these and as long as S|C supports Win7 still.
When there´s enough RAM in these machines, x64 is possible too.
The HP xw 4400/ 4600 servers are so cheap and available in masses @ebay and elsewhere.
The higher priced XEON versions of these servers might be overkill already.
And there still exist SATA300 (SATA-2) SSDs (250 & 500 gig) made by OWC (TX, USA),- originally produced for older Apple Mac upgrades.
These work w/ Windows too.



Bud

Yeah I still have the rack mount PC that the cards are in, but its bulky, noisy and requires peripherals. There is this but expensive :

https://www.exsys-shop.de/shopware/en/c ... upply?c=18

dante wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 12:03 pm Yeah I still have the rack mount PC that the cards are in, but its bulky, noisy and requires peripherals. There is this but expensive :

https://www.exsys-shop.de/shopware/en/c ... upply?c=18

Aren´t these the expansion boxes already discussed here as also reported as performing more or less poor ?

Theoretical specs, supporting 3.3V and 5V PCI cards, seem to be good at 1st glance,- but you also need the PCIe adapter card ...
https://www.exsys-shop.de/shopware/en/c ... /1041/1042 , which is another EUR/ $ 50,-.

When I look @ that cards specs, I read:

PCI Express Base, Specifications: Revision 1.0a

So,- I googled ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express

quote:
In 2003, PCI-SIG introduced PCIe 1.0a, with a per-lane data rate of 250 MB/s and a transfer rate of 2.5 gigatransfers per second (GT/s) ... This corresponds to 2.0 Gbps of pre-coded data or 250 MB/s, which is referred to as throughput in PCIe.

This is the lowest level (year 2003) PCIe standard,-
Is that enough (sustained ?) data thruput for 3 Scope Power Pulsar/ Pro PCI cards and Scope application realtime work ?

Already in 2005 PCIe standard 1.1, not improving data rate, was introduced.
Performance was improved nonetheless.

PCIe standard 2.0, doubling data transfer rate,- was introduced in jan 2007.

Somewhat O.T. but not really and because of XITE architecture of 4 DSP slots:

AFAIK, XITE-1 was introduced in 2009,- no ?
So,- looking at S|C XITE-1 PCIe cards for a comparison,- these should be PCIe standard 2.0,- the old one w/ DVI connector as also the actual one.
It can be the actual one is improved PCIe 2.1 (march 2009) w/ same speed as PCIe 2.0,- or 3.0 (introduced 11/ 2010) already,- "delivering 985 MB/s per lane, nearly doubling the lane bandwidth relative to PCI Express 2.0."

Even we´re not talking about XITE-1 (D), I can imagine, SCOPE might require PCIe standard 2.0 for any expansion case supporting up to 4 PCI cards (while only a combo of 3 Scope PCI cards is supported using STDM connectors).
So even the cards get the required power of 5V each,- overall data thruput might be mediocre in the sense of "Scope realtime work" because of the PCIe connector electronics poor performance.

It´s not up to the vendor because the item is clearly specified as PCIe rev 1.0a !

So,- nothing better available until you´ll find something.
And,- looking at costs for that possibly mediocre working experiment,- you can buy up to 9 (!!!) HP xw4600 servers for that money in case your already and up to now existing rackmount PC hosting your SCOPE cards fails.

I payed 40 bucks plus shipping for mine.
It was good condition, lacked OS and HDDs,- but came w/ a for me obsolete PCIe x4 SAS controller card and a Saphire PCIe x16 graphics card.
When I´d sell these, I´d have it for free or made money.

So,- w/ that background, you really think about "bulky, noise and peripherals" ?

When you want EVERYTHING connected to only 1 machine and performing 100% perfect, that´s the most costs producing factor before you know if it will really work at all !
A few users reports don´t matter because you never know what their demand really was and even these might be SCOPE users too.
Some might be still satisfied w/ more or less poor performance ...



Bud

Doesn’t it depend on use case ? Mine would be running say 4 - 8 poly on a single synth at 96 kHz 1 pulsar plus 2 Luna. Using pulsar MIDI in and ADAT out - no ASIO at all.

Eg a scope synth expander.

dante wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 9:21 pm Doesn’t it depend on use case ? Mine would be running say 4 - 8 poly on a single synth at 96 kHz 1 pulsar plus 2 Luna. Using pulsar MIDI in and ADAT out - no ASIO at all.

Eg a scope synth expander.

I´m not sure if count of cards in use make a difference, but can be.
3 cards consumate more amperes/watts than only 1 card, so 1 big(ger) card seems to be best,- Pulsar-2, Power Pulsar or Scope Pro.
I guess ASync has impact,- all what SCOPE app wants when running devices and communicating w/ host computer.

Which synth ?

I bought Noah EX for 400 bucks to have an expander and can route every device via ADAT out into XITE or PCI card system and have audio ins for Vocodizer and Interpole on demand.

These expansion boxes are just too expensive for what they do and for that experiment.
But you can try and report here.



Bud

The same synths I was running on the 3 cards in their current (redundant) i7 4790 box - proWave, proTone, miniMax, prodyssey bit of Modular IV etc.

I had them ADAT'ed to XITE1-D so PCI bandwidth was never a problem (no ASIO used) and connected together with STDM so they communicate direct to each other. Cost seems to be the main inhibitor, just to get a bit of convenience of not needing extra monitor, mouse, keyboard etc. & reduce noise. However, this seems cheap enough : https://www.coolgear.com/product/pci-ex ... ansion-box

A NOAH would be better in some ways, but I wouldnt want to go through what you went through.

ASIO would not necessarily be the reason for PCI overflow. the synths can do that on their own.

the powersupply in those boxes is insufficient for more than one card, most likely. those things are pieces of crap(for Scope cards). but don't take my word, use it if you like. i'm hoping that it does everything that you want it to do for you.

why not control the Scope computer with the mouse, keybord and monitor(s) from the main computer? there are many easy ways to do this. the cards are obsolete. you can still use them(i do!), but it's not likely that they will ever fit in the very newest computers and work well. i'm not calling it impossible. i just think it's easier to use everything within its limitations.

Tempted by this : $600 Aus :
https://reverb.com/au/item/6946073-creamware-noah

dante wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:54 am The same synths I was running on the 3 cards in their current (redundant) i7 4790 box - proWave, proTone, miniMax, prodyssey bit of Modular IV etc.
...
A NOAH would be better in some ways, but I wouldnt want to go through what you went through.

Noah takes load from SCOPE (PCI or XITE) when using S|C stock bigger synths,-
Minimax, ProOne, Sixstring, Prodyssey, Profit-5, Vectron Player, Lightwave.
That´s what you (sometimes) want w/ some polyphony in SCOPE and cost ressources.
Vocodizer, Interpole, EDS8i and B2003 don´t need too much ressources it seems,- and you have lots of FX and a mixer in Noah.

But you urgently need Noah EX because it hosts 11 DSPs !!!
The bigger synths need 1 DSP slot for 3 voices and 2 for 6-8 voices and you can play up to 16 voices when using a single device across all the 4 DSP slots.
B2003 is the only one providing full polyphony in only 1 DSP slot.

There´s NO way to change a single DSP slot´s ressources to only "1 voice".
When playing a synth monophonic you set that up in the synth´s preset itself and that doesn´t free any ressources for the other DSP slots.

The problems I had w/ Noah EX reflash procedure etc. were caused by me being a newbie,- and uncomplete instructions didn´t help much, so I has to investigate the web and asking a lot in forum.
It´s not very difficult when you know how it works and you do it striktly step by step using the right tools.
The most important tools are a perfect workin WinXP computer w/ stable USB (1.1/ 2.0) connectivity, at least 2GHz proc and a working KEYFILE !!!

I myself, I got keys in textform and had no clue about how .oxe files worked.
So I made mistakes installing devices one by one.
When doin´ one-by-one using .oxe,- you also have to point installation routine (pluginstaller.exe) to both,- Noah and Editor IF (internal flash) VERY quickly (!!!),- otherwise it installs only into Noah and GUI won´t appear in editor.
I had to find out all this myself,- but NOW, I can instruct others,- even not for everything up to now.

When Gary provided a keyfile, almost everything became easy and just only needed minutes !

When I were satisfied w/ what I bought, I´d naver had to reflash Noah EX at all,- but I´m somewhat nerdish and always try to squeeze out the most of everything if possible,- so I reflashed to get latest OS and ALL the device and not only the 6 pre-installed ones.

You might find a Noah EX some day, w/ everything you need being pre-installed already, incl. keyfile,- and you power up and it does all you want.

My main issue is Profit-5 not providing it´s synth parameters for Noah frontpanel editing and as the other devices do.
I cannot imagine Creamware were so stupid releasing the Pro12/ Profit-5 for Noah that way,- so I don´t give up getting more info and try again.
IMO it might be a installation issue in combo w/ available size of internal flash memory.
But I really want Profit-5 fully functional because Sequential Circuits Prophet- 5 was my 1st polysynth w/ total recall preset memory,- and I sold both I owned long time ago.
For me it´s good to have in my keyboard-rig and not have to power up a DAW all the time.
But integration into studio-/DAW setup is welcome too.

So, with a Noah (EX) and XITE-1D,- you use SCOPE stock synths on Noah EX and use the more DSP hungry (Zarg) stuff on XITE-1D together w/ ASIO, mixers, FX and such,- and feed Noah ADAT-out for 4 ind. stereo out into XITE-1D ADAT-In for DAW integration and still get the Noah mixer main outs w/ FX via analog.
You can simultaneously use "Noah Remote Editor" software on a XP machine being connected to Noah (EX) USB, edit, transfer preset banks etc..
You can buy 1GB SD-Card @Thomann, working w/ Noah and backup presets on that card.
FAT32 works w/ latest OS.

I got a old ACER laptop Intel Pentium dual core 2.1 GHz, 4GB RAM,- and I´m busy seting it up w/ Win XP SP3 for NoahRemote Editor.
Biggest issue,- finding drivers for that laptop and XP,- but it´s almost ready I think.
Some Vista 32Bit drivers worked and I have to install the last 4 being left and see if I get AHCI working for the SATA drive.
I´ll buy a OWC SATA-2 SSD when it works.

Noah in a rack w/ laptop on a shelf is very compact.
In studio simply put laptop on top of Noah, have USB cable and use the software.
Earphones being plucked into Noah and a small MIDI-keyboard are enough for programming the toy.

Noah itself is a rugged piece of gear.
The only part becoming a problem in future might be the PSU which is something special because delivering a voltage not being usual for today´s computer PSUs anymore.
That´s what my tech said ...

It´s hard to find a EX model in good condition though.



Bud

dante wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:49 pm Tempted by this : $600 Aus :
https://reverb.com/au/item/6946073-creamware-noah

Here´s one in germany w/ keys.
No one grabs it since a long time, so bargain should be possible.
It´s also not a "EX" though.

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... 393-74-779

Seller says that´s the real pics, so condition seems to be great.
I´d try to get him down to EUR 400,-.

Hint:
You get 6 (ProOne) and up to 8 voices w/ the other synths across the 2 DSP slots,- full polyphony w/ B2003 in only ! DSP slot.

And I forgot to mention,- 2 analog In´s (p.ex. for Vocodizer and/or Interpole) aren´t bad at all too.

If that´s enough for you, grab it.

I payed EUR 400,- for the "EX" because the heirs had no keys and no clue.



Bud

Well 400 Euro is about the same as $600 aus here. If it was $400 Aus that would be a no brainer - Ex or not.

Studios should be expensive as hell, or you aren't doing it correctly.
the only reason to avoid expense is if you don't have the money. the more money you have, the more you can do. cheap components are just cheap, in general.

What - Noah components are cheap ?

relatively.

it's all relative.

much miscommunication. much hyperbole.

garyb wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:45 pm much miscommunication. much hyperbole.

relateable

I've no idea what that means.

smile!

......much hyperbole about studio components...