Always random Pops n Crackles

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ARCADIOS
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Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by ARCADIOS »

Hi, happy new year to all scope family.

I have pops and crackles.

Had them always since 2004 that I first started using my scope(creamware) system.

With, xp, 7, 8, 10.
32 or 64 bit.

Asio and Wave have problem to me.

Thd only audio that gets out of scope without pops is scope's synths directly played.

Asio (less) and wave playback.. had been always with random crackles, glitches and pops.

During the years I have managed to create a lot of music, and for professional reasons also. I had deadlines and the most annoying problem was the fear of pops during playback.

Especially when I was applying a scope effect, which I had to playback the whole track and simultaneously record it in a sequencer track, when I had these random pops, I had to stop the record, go back a few seconds and record again.

The only solution but never 100% pop and crackles free was to have all asio latency settings at the max latency.

At the present I still have the same problem, but I wanted to give it a try fixing it for good.
Bellow you see my present system.

Please leave your comments and I try applying your advice, if I haven't already.



ully settings at max latency
44.1 khz
---------------------------------------------

My system.

2 pci cards. 14dsp + 6dsp.
Mobo gigabyte dq6x48
Cpu Intel q9550
I use one ssd only.
Windows 10 64bit.
Scope 5.1 64bit
System optimized for audio

Eist, c1 disabled from bios
Usb that interfere with some irqs disabled.
Many Services disabled
Themes disabled
Pc focus in Background.
And many other background services disabled also.

One 27" hd monitor.
Nvidia set for maximum performance
Power settings set for maximum performance.
Last edited by ARCADIOS on Sun Jan 16, 2022 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spielraum
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Re: Pops n Crackles in YouTube in chrome browser

Post by Spielraum »

this can also happen with firefox after an update, and will be fixed after next update, if i remember.
it will probably be the same for chrome(and all other browser). wait for the future update, or write to browser-support!
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ARCADIOS
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by ARCADIOS »

Dear friend Spielraum, as you can see I have updated the subject, and I would like to get deeper into this problem.

Thanks for your opinion though about browser update, but I doubt it is a browser fault, since mobo onboard audio realtek never had these issues.
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garyb
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by garyb »

realtec is not real-time. it is DIFFERENT.

Wave random pops is normal, but not extreme. Wave is only good for YouTube and games anyway.

ASIO pops are caused by your computer. OneDrive is a likely suspect, but not setting the bios correctly, having lots of background apps running, some anti-virus apps, Windows 10 wanting to update, other apps trying to update, etc. will all cause pops. open the Task Manager while the pops are happening and see what is hogging CPU cycles. Windows 10 has a lot of garbage running that does not need to be. the computer industry's attitude is, "CPUs are more powerful, so let's run a whole bunch of garbage and monitor everything via the internet".

there are limits to what can be run. Scope is a real-time system, the computer is not. Realtec can wait for the computer, Scope cannot. don't overload the computer, and there won't be any pops. i have product on the radio, without pops, using win10 and a Core2 Quad....
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ARCADIOS
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by ARCADIOS »

I will try by disabling windows 10 services from within gpedit and taskscheduler.

I hope I can make windows as light as possible, and perhaps I fix it.

Garyb In case I dont want any windows updates, Have you got any idea if I can disable from gpedit and task scheduler permanently?
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by garyb »

i would not mess with services.
Windows 10 is NOT like earlier versions of Windows. it is now considered a SERVICE, not a PRODUCT. it MUST be connected to the internet, and it MUST update, or there will be trouble. if you don't like that, use an earlier version of Windows.

you should not need to do anything drastic to make it reliable.
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valis
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by valis »

Try changing the Hardware Acelleration in Chrome to disabled and see if that has any impact, if it does it's thread scheduling between the audio and video feed specific to that browser and whatever codec is being used. Keep in mind that Chrome and Youtube are both Google owned, and they will likely include codec extensions and software optimizations that Firefox does not, due to licensing and IP concerns.

Also, use the browser that works better for a given task, would be a good general rule of thumb.
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by garyb »

YouTube is fine here with win10 32 and 64bit. i have used Brave(Chrome), Firefox, and Edge.
i would not use wave drivers for important recordings, but there sure isn't an issue with entertainment. i have YT running right this moment.
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by valis »

Nothing here disagrees with your expertise, but as we all know the variety of components and systems out there is magnitudes higher than any of us can account for. I will always defer to Gary when it comes to Scope related issues, and I also support his thesis that the issues faced are not due to some defect in Scope itself.

ARCADIOS, one other thing you should check is to "Open Sound Settings" via right click on Windows Volume Icon, and then click "Sound Control Panel" in the top right of that window (under "Related Settings"). Once that is open, right click on each i/o you are using for WAV output (from Scope) in the Playback and Recording tabs, ensure they are using the SAME samplerate and bit-depth that you have set in your scope project (and in the Scope driver's panel accessible via Device Manager).

While doing this, you may also want to go to the "Enhancements" tab on the Recording properties and set it to 'disable all enhancements' and on the Playback driver properties set spatialization to 'off'. Lastly, go to the Sound "Communication" tab and set it to "Do Nothing".
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by djmicron »

Hi, on some systems disabling virtualization can reduce drastically the clicks issue.
Good luck
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by ARCADIOS »

Guys, I have been disabling lots of services, some of which I am not sure yet if are necessary for the system...
But, things are getting better...

Still I get every 3,4 minutes a pop in asio in highest ully and also samplitude highest buffer... Unfortunately...
I will continue disabling, because I see in windows 10 there are so many services in background...

I wonder if it is a ground issue of pci cards....
Could that be??

Anyway... It's a miracle that we are talking about 18 year old cards
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by ARCADIOS »

djmicron wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 7:04 am Hi, on some systems disabling virtualization can reduce drastically the clicks issue.
Good luck
If you're talking about virtualization technology from bios, yes I had already disabled it today... But thanks... Hope it helps among the other numerous disables....

I also disabled thermal monitor...
I also set graphic card to standard instead of turbo...(bios)

Don't know guys....

Really I will start considering a windws 7 64 bit install unless It can be fixed with a better grounding of the PC-Cards- PSU... Or whatever may interfere...
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by djmicron »

I don't think it's grounding related, it's more a combination of driver vs PCI bus.
I recently assembled an I5 based PC from 2010 with 3 PCI cards (Scope + 2xPulsar2), it had some crackles on 64 bits OS and also Masterverb test reached only 6 reverbs loaded. Then I tried to use PCI-e to PCI adapters instead of mounting the Scope cards into the low quality PCI slots and it improved the Masterverb test to 12 and also crackles disappeared from ASIO and are very rare from wave source.
The adapters I used are the ones from Startech with code PEX1PCI1. The only disadvantage is that they add some height to the audio cards, so a case with more height for ports is required.
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by ARCADIOS »

djmicron wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:30 am I don't think it's grounding related, it's more a combination of driver vs PCI bus.
I recently assembled an I5 based PC from 2010 with 3 PCI cards (Scope + 2xPulsar2), it had some crackles on 64 bits OS and also Masterverb test reached only 6 reverbs loaded. Then I tried to use PCI-e to PCI adapters instead of mounting the Scope cards into the low quality PCI slots and it improved the Masterverb test to 12 and also crackles disappeared from ASIO and are very rare from wave source.
The adapters I used are the ones from Startech with code PEX1PCI1. The only disadvantage is that they add some height to the audio cards, so a case with more height for ports is required.
And what do you believe would be the best scenario if i get a pci express adapter? Each card to its own pci express port via adapter? Can they be bridged as usual 6+14dsp?
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by nebelfuerst »

I had pops/crackles for a long time with my 15dspcard connected to an A16. One day I bought expensive Adat-cables and the pop/crackles were gone on Adat.
ASIO should work 100% crackes free. You can check with winamp-asio drivers or foobar 2000.
Only with ASIO working perfect, I would suggest to try wave.

Wave is not perfect, but not noticeable on normal playback. I suspect scope to lack some capabilities of classic soundcards, which cause this.
To get around this, I tried to feed the SPDIF of a soundcard into scope, but I didn't get any signal.

You should stop all Win10 spyware with shutup10 or w10privacy, killing those stupid telemetry stuff and defender, which is busy all the time.
Then get latencymon and let it run for some time to measure the realtime ability of your windows.

On my systems, there was no noticeable effect by changing bios, graphiccards. I can burn DVDs, watch TV while scope is pop-free in background. Only VNCserver once seemed to have an effect on wave playback.
This all is just for inspiration, you problem might differ from the one's I solved in the past.
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by djmicron »

ARCADIOS wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:01 am And what do you believe would be the best scenario if i get a pci express adapter? Each card to its own pci express port via adapter? Can they be bridged as usual 6+14dsp?
Yes, you can bridge them as usually, those adapters don't require any drivers, they work as regular PCI slots.
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 2:10 pm i would not mess with services.
Windows 10 is NOT like earlier versions of Windows. it is now considered a SERVICE, not a PRODUCT. it MUST be connected to the internet, and it MUST update, or there will be trouble. if you don't like that, use an earlier version of Windows.

you should not need to do anything drastic to make it reliable.
What about services coming w/ 3rd party stuff like antivirus, O&O defrag (because of using HDD in addition to SSDs), Macrium (for backups), and all these by laptop manufacturers (Lenovo, HP etc.) maintenance applications installed sevices ?
Even Native Instruments install hardware controler services by default when installing NI Komplete, - Ultimate,- Ultimate CE.

I see a lot of services not being native Microsoft Windows.

:)

Bud
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by garyb »

there are many who get super technical and make things worse. generally, i avoid super geeky solutions unless absolutely necessary.

i never have a problem with antivirus, as long as i let it finish updating.
i never need 3rd party defrag apps, even when mixing HDDs and SSDs. defrasg apps should not run by default. use them when needed(never needed with win10 anyway, XP is dead)
Macrium should not run during musicmaking.
maintenance applications get deleted. who needs them?
NI services are needed for NI....
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by Bud Weiser »

garyb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm there are many who get super technical and make things worse. generally, i avoid super geeky solutions unless absolutely necessary.
Thx,- overall,- good info as always !
garyb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm i never have a problem with antivirus, as long as i let it finish updating.
I only mentioned ´cause I see services listed.
I use AVAST because it allows stopping activity for minutes, hrs, until next start or entirely.
But when deactivated, the services still exist and doesn´t allow to be set to "manual" p.ex..
In fact, they doesn´t allow any alternative setings like most or every antivirus application does.
garyb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm i never need 3rd party defrag apps, even when mixing HDDs and SSDs. defrasg apps should not run by default. use them when needed(never needed with win10 anyway, XP is dead)
I rarely use it,- but when you set this service to "manual", O&O defrag doesn´t work when you launch the program on demand,- unless you go and make it start "automatic" again next boot.
How needs that ?
I always found windows onboard defragmentation for HDDs insanely slow and O&O defrag changed that,- free or pro.

With Win10 on my laptop, I started not using a defragmentation app.
I use 2 internal SSDs and any HDD external only,- if at all.
Instead I own external Crucial MX500 SSDs connected via USB3.
Surprisingly, Win10 drive optimization doesn´t work as expected w/ Crucial MX500 in Icy Box enclosures.
It recognizes ext. SSD as harddrive and tries to defrag the SSD. Unbelievable !
I had the luck recognizing quick and immedeatedly stopped the process.
garyb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm Macrium should not run during musicmaking.
On my machines, office or DAW, no unwanted applications run in background,- but services do.
Like O&O defrag, Macrium Reflect (free) wants to run it´s service too and even the applic<ation is not in use.
garyb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm maintenance applications get deleted. who needs them?
O.k., I was unsure if they are necessary or not and if they make issues when uninstalled.
When I bought the laptop used and in excellent condition, Win10 Pro 64Bit was already pre-installed by IMO relatively good skilled former user and when I accessed the web for the 1st time, the Lenovo apps updated everything in one go,- latest drivers too,- very comfortable.

The (Win10) laptop makes less issues than my Z97 Win7 Pro 64Bit 19" rackmount rig.
The latter introduces occasional clicks and pops and Latency Monitor shows alterenately "something" kicking in after 2+ minutes.
I already described in a former thread sometime ago.
It´s random and there´s stuff,- at least I myself cannot defeat w/o the risk deactivating urgently necessary drivers.

I´m not a computer newbie, but also not the cat pro DAW builders are.
Latency Monitor lists drivers and what else temporary and until another driver kicks in.
It´s hard to recognize what makes real issues and what not,- at least for the common musician.
garyb wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:09 pm NI services are needed for NI...
IMO, they shouldn´t !
I don´t use any NI hardware like controller keyboard, "Guitar Rig" related outboard pedal board or audio interfaces.
So, it´s obsolete crap for me.
But Native Access installs updates every time I launch and when NI updates are available.
I guess, any update brings ´em back.

You know, I guess EVERY app out there wants to grab my machine(s) alone,- and sooner or later they will win.
I wonder for how long we can withstand this evolution and w/ SCOPE.

I hope beta-testing works well for upocoming S|C app (SCOPE) !

:)

Bud
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valis
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Re: Always random Pops n Crackles

Post by valis »

Most services like NI's don't do anything in the background. Defrag only works on spinning drives, SSD's do garbage collection and the only OS intervention is to send TRIM commands (and disable things like prefetch when an SSD is the boot drive).

The main thing here though is each system is different, there's not going to be a singular answer. And I support GaryB's thesis that overtweaking a system can actually introduce other issues. The only thing I really do now is run O&O Shutup10 + Win10Privacy to turn off telemetry, clipboard sharing and things like that. I also ensure that no applications are running in the tasktray that keep microphone & camera inputs going, and will block access on my Scope/DAW box to just about anything like that anyway. A good deal of that can be done right in the control panel now too.
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