Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

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engelkott
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Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by engelkott »

Hi all!

I don't know if anyone else was running Scope 5.1 on Windows 10? Last week I upgraded to Windows 11 and the workaround for installing the Pulsar II driver doesn't work with Windows 11. In the device status box in Device Manager there is an error icon with:
This device cannot start. (Code 10)

The I/O device is configured incorrectly or the configuration parameters to the driver are incorrect.
So it looks like I have to either upgrade or set up a 2nd machine with Windows 7. Both options are problematic for me because I don't use the Pulsar II enough to warrant the upgrade price and Studio One (among others) no longer works in Windows 7. I guess another option would be to run Windows 10 but that isn't an option for other reasons.

I just wanted to post this here in case anyone else has had any success with Windows 11 or is running Scope 5.1 with Windows 10 and was considering upgrading.

In case anyone is wondering I have TPM and secure boot disabled. I disabled test signing and integrity checks then ran the install as administrator. I rebooted at each stage as requested and have also reset test signing and integrity checks to their previous state with no success.
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valis
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by valis »

Scope 7 is inexpensive
engelkott
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by engelkott »

valis wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:07 am Scope 7 is inexpensive
Well, 150 Euros is expensive for a driver that is under 200 kb in size. It's more than I can afford for something I don't use very often these days.

I would agree the v7 suite is inexpensive for a new purchase but from my point of view there isn't anything new in v7 that I don't already have with v5.1. But I'm happy to be corrected on this.

I am not knocking the company. They write new software and they shouldn't give away free software updates. However, other companies make drivers available for free. That's all I need, a driver not the software.

In case you think I want something for nothing or I am moaning (I'm not I'm just answering your point) please remember I paid £1,000 for the Pulsar II and £500 for the Powersampler at the time of purchase. I then paid for each version update (from v2 to v5.1) plus other plug-ins for the system. I'd estimate I've spent about £3,000+ in that time.

The least we legacy customers could get is a driver that works with a new version of Windows even if it only functions as a soundcard.
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garyb
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by garyb »

for the umpteenth time, the price is NOT for a driver. it is for the PROGRAM that loads the dsps. the driver is free. you can download it and install it. the driver alone will not do anything. it takes years to make a new version of Scope. you have to pay for that.

as to what you originally paid, SonicCore makes nothing from those old payments to Creamware. it would cost as much or more to make a new version of Scope that allowed the card to be used as a soundcard only. that is not how the hgardware works. again, you can have the driver for free. the card won't do anything with just the driver.
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by nebelfuerst »

Microsoft brakes backward compatibility especially with the windows number going up. It is not just about drivers, but about libraries and programming models. Sometimes, M$ includes some emulations mode, so people think the new windows is the same, but over time various reasons like security issues let them remove those emulations. People are locked in now.
Even if some software seems to start on a later windows, it often shows more strange behaviours and even crashes, as it was never developed nor tested ob this configuration.
So you either could to stay with you working configuration of old hardware/windows/scope/daw.
Chosing a windows update typically results in a follow up investment on hardware, software..
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by Liquid EDGE »

………
Last edited by Liquid EDGE on Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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valis
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by valis »

So we have a anecdotal report that Scope 5.1 doesn't work with default settings on Win11.

For others considering a similar path that may read this, clearly upgrading to Scope 7 is cheaper than a second PC. And note I ran a second Scope PC for well over a decade (and still do, though I *did* build a Scope 7 Win10 box, Win10 is supported until 2025 at the least, and I was still on XP for Scope just not connected directly to the internet).

Where there's a will, there's a way...
engelkott
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by engelkott »

valis wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:25 pm So we have a anecdotal report that Scope 5.1 doesn't work with default settings on Win11.

For others considering a similar path that may read this, clearly upgrading to Scope 7 is cheaper than a second PC. And note I ran a second Scope PC for well over a decade (and still do, though I *did* build a Scope 7 Win10 box, Win10 is supported until 2025 at the least, and I was still on XP for Scope just not connected directly to the internet).

Where there's a will, there's a way...
You are 100% correct that upgrading to v7 is far cheaper than buying a new pc. Luckily for me I have 2 old PCs under my bed plus parts to build another in my basement. So that isn't an issue for me.

My preference is to not have multiple PCs in my studio with extra keyboards, mice, wiring to a mixer, monitors and so on. I am quite content to have my 3 screens attached to 1 PC. My days of multiple desktop PCs are behind me.

In a way setting up a 2nd PC for music will benefit me because then I will have a spare PCI slot to run the Powersampler card instead of it sitting in the drawer. I just don't want or need another box sitting around my space.

I don't know why it seems some people want to be confrontational or provocative about this issue. I am not stamping my feet demanding anything for free except a driver update. Sure, my hardware is over 20 years old. Maybe I have no right to expect driver updates but my 20 year old Wacom graphics tablet still gets driver updates. This isn't a cheap peripheral but a £1,000 soundcard.

I don't expect free software updates by Scope, PreSonus or anyone else. I get that they run a business and updates cost time, development and they should charge for that. I do not agree that should extend to a driver for basic functionality.

As I said, I am not looking for an argument. I originally posted information people may have found helpful so as to prevent people from upgrading to W11 only to find their Scope v5.1 driver not working. Maybe also someone encountered the same problem and had a solution.

There's no need to be a w@nker about it, is there? But hey, thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll just go and do one. I can't even sell these cards so if any of you have a sensible off I'll consider it.
engelkott
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by engelkott »

nebelfuerst wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:35 am Microsoft brakes backward compatibility especially with the windows number going up. It is not just about drivers, but about libraries and programming models. Sometimes, M$ includes some emulations mode, so people think the new windows is the same, but over time various reasons like security issues let them remove those emulations. People are locked in now.
Even if some software seems to start on a later windows, it often shows more strange behaviours and even crashes, as it was never developed nor tested ob this configuration.
So you either could to stay with you working configuration of old hardware/windows/scope/daw.
Chosing a windows update typically results in a follow up investment on hardware, software..
Usually most older software can be run in compatibility mode but as I mentioned I'm not talking about the Scope software. I can accept that Scope v5.1 won't run smoothly as the jump from Windows 7 to 10 or 11 is a big step. Going from Windows 10 to 11 is hardly a step at all.

So, I have no issue with Scope 5.1 not working. For all I know it does work. The driver doesn't.
engelkott
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by engelkott »

garyb wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:45 am for the umpteenth time, the price is NOT for a driver. it is for the PROGRAM that loads the dsps. the driver is free. you can download it and install it. the driver alone will not do anything. it takes years to make a new version of Scope. you have to pay for that.

as to what you originally paid, SonicCore makes nothing from those old payments to Creamware. it would cost as much or more to make a new version of Scope that allowed the card to be used as a soundcard only. that is not how the hgardware works. again, you can have the driver for free. the card won't do anything with just the driver.
This was not at all what my original post was about. It was about warning/helping other people in my situation after all this is a discussion forum designed to help and support a niche user base with Scope hardware.

I have no problem paying for version updates. That wasn't what my post was about, comments since have turned the thread into that.

In the past I have paid for version updates and even half version updates. Please don't misinterpret my reply to other user's comments as a complaint. It wasn't. I was only explaining to them why I don't want to update my software not complaining about it.

Scope users seem to be a very small dying community and it seems a shame that some people here are a little hostile which instead of encouraging people like me to upgrade wants to make me abandon i instead. They are shooting themselves in the foot because the less people like me there are the less updates are sold which means you are less likely to develop a new version.

But they are too short sighted to see that just like most other niche communities. I've done my time here in the past under 2 other user names helping people a long time ago when this place was friendlier and more like a community. But then I am from the old Amiga days where people helped each other out when you are supporting a niche group.

I have no beef with Sonic. Most of this reply is aimed at the other posters. Now I'm off to remove my card, one less Scope user.
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valis
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by valis »

Your first post does have the clear intention of engaging others who might have solutions, and then offering up your experience to others as well. Note that I included this potential audience in one of my responses, which you quoted, so that I could add clear information.

Note also that my first response was to simply give your best option, if trying to resolve this with your Win11 machine. I gave no other commentary at this point.

Now, consider that when you visit a forum, it's a community much like any others. We are very accepting here, and in fact would like to see you succeed in your use of Scope, as long as you continue to pursue that. As a community, we have many users and many questions. If you've used social media where you have a 'wall', then you might have observed that groups within this context get a very 'wide but not deep' type of engagement, where many questions are either random noise or very novice oriented. Forums are somewhat similar in this sense, in that there will be conversational themes that will be oft-repeated.

Scope went from Win98/ME (16bit) and Mac OS from that era, to XP, to Vista, to Win7, to Win10 and we've been discussing Win11 somewhat in other threads. In fact I do believe 1-2 people have already reported success, with Scope 7 (note this was my first response).

I would say it wasn't until your second post, that there was any kind of response from here that might be construed by you as negative. I might suggest, very cordially, that you re-read your post and then responses after it. It's not necessary to read those in the context of what I am suggesting in this post, but this might help:

Oft-repeated lines of discussion can get very redundant for those who are always there to participate in them. Hence GaryB's response. And if the subject being discussed is also very similar to what you might face with similar products or workflows, well then that might explain the other responses. And again, the overall tone might be viewed in light of your actions as well.

Cordially, someone who would like to see you find a way.
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valis
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by valis »

Future conversations like this one should fall easily under our Forum FAQ entries. As common themes come up, we would be pleased if people like this made it so readily apparent that we would do better to point them at our FAQ into the future:

https://www.scopeusers.com/planetz-forums/forum-faq.html
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garyb
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by garyb »

it's all matter of priorities. it depends on what you want and use. personally, i find what is in Scope very useful to me, but maybe others don't like the kinds of things that Scope can do.

anyway, please don't think i am being rude, mean, ill-intentioned, or hateful, because i am not. at least, i am not that way on purpose. i guess i can't help it. i'm getting to be a crank in my old age. of course i want to see people enjoy Scope. first, i want it because i use Scope "seriously", i want it to continue. second, because if SonicCore cannot pay bills, then Scope will never be kept updated, and i and Holger wil have serious problems making a living. :)

i always appreciate people giving information about their experience with technical issues and other experiences. it's part of how i learn about things.
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by Liquid EDGE »

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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by yayajohn »

engelkott wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:44 pm I've done my time here in the past under 2 other user names
What other names?
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Peter Drake
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by Peter Drake »

How much for the card you won't be using?
nebelfuerst
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by nebelfuerst »

engelkott wrote: Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:24 pm
Usually most older software can be run in compatibility mode but as I mentioned I'm not talking about the Scope software. I can accept that Scope v5.1 won't run smoothly as the jump from Windows 7 to 10 or 11 is a big step. Going from Windows 10 to 11 is hardly a step at all.

So, I have no issue with Scope 5.1 not working. For all I know it does work. The driver doesn't.
Drivers never really worked well with compatiblilty modes on Windows upgrades. Drivers can easily crash the system or bring down it-security.
If you're a geek, you can switch of signing and enable testmode to get them working.
Some drivers like HID don't chance much over time, but some others (like graphics) sometimes make a complete change of programming models.

Win11 is advertised to improve it-security and brake backward compatibility. ( from a presentation to our company)
Win10 is the alternative choice for compatibility.

This discussion is similar to one with a friend, who bought the apple M1 and now complains about compatibility problems with software he bought years before the M1 came out. ( there seems to be an unwritten rule, that apple is never to blame, no matter what bugs they included)
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by dante »

So whats the issue here ? Is it a question of whether S|C support Scope 5.1 under Windows 11 ?

Here at http://scope.zone/index.php?id=1611&lg=en I see that Scope 7 is compatible with :
Host Computer Operating System:
Microsoft Windows XP: 32 Bit / 64 Bit
Microsoft Windows 7: 32 Bit / 64 Bit
Microsoft Windows 8: 32 Bit / 64 Bit
Microsoft Windows 10: 32 Bit / 64 Bit

Nothing about Windows 11. (Theres also no statement I can see regarding Scope 5.1 and Windows versions.)

So to me Scope isnt officially supporting Windows 11 at all - 5.1 or 7. Correct me if Im wrong.

One would hope with the new forthcoming S|C web presence that there will be at least some positioning regards Windows 11. In the meantime everything said here is kinda moot isnt it ?
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Re: Scope 5.1 (Pulsar II) and Windows 11

Post by valis »

Just to clarify to our normal userbase, we do have people who repeatedly return to level their complaints against the platform via these forums. Whether this is driven by competitors, customers who were frustrated, or autists who just can't let it go...I cannot say in every case (and in none of that am I levelling accusations, but I've engaged enough with these folks behind the scenes to know some of this is indeed the case sometimes).

This fellow has already admitted to having not one but two other identities here, made a few posts and left in an inflammatory way without anything but an apparent loss on his end. Or, he came here simply to score points against the Scope platform. I'm going to start the FAQ method of dealing with these people.

DDOS'ing us, complaining to our userbase, arguing with us, etc. How would this in any way move the needle with Sonic|Core? The time spent here comes from the general userbase, and the hosting & etc comes from me and has been substantially supported by you folks. Holger has made a few posts here, but otherwise this fellow is taking his frustrations out on the wrong people, as have many people in the past.

I really do feel for whatever their situation may be that causes them to (at the least) come here to vent and then leave in a huff, but in the grand scheme of things all it does is piss on people who are making do with what they already have. If we stopped responding to this post, it would be buried and it wouldn't affect S|C's sales or public perception in the least.
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