Xite with Usb connector

The Sonic Core XITE hardware platform for Scope

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fra77x2
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by fra77x2 »

I don't care that much about Xite- usb. I am mainly talkng about the things that Gary said like xite is special it is realtime etc. so whatever i write now is not supposed to point out why to make xite usb compatible. we said that it is not possible, ok.

now it is not really complicated or unique how xite works or how i suppose it works. it works as everything else with on board processors and some communication with a pc. a dsp or a dsp farm is as realtime as every other processor or microcontroller, the timing of the events is synchronised with timers and interrupts. There is no problem with dynamically allocating resources as all the resouces that can be dynamicqlly allocated are measured to be able to be computed in certain time so to fit in the interrupt execution time. remember the dsp meter? i am telling you this because i have programmed a modular that runs on microprocessors and it works similarly to xite.
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valis
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by valis »

If your read my post in full I allude to the fact that you’re referring to changes to Xite *as it exists*. Redesigning a *thing that exists and already works a certain way* is mot the same as throwing out a torrent of brainstorming ideas for some theoretical version of said product. The latter is about as difficult as posting on these forums, the former is a cost/benefit analysis and prospective development path discussion for S|C internally and I read Gary’s responses in that light.
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dante
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by dante »

If Windows is not realtime then get rid of it. Of course that would require XITE-2. But instead of saving Scope projects to Windows and having Windows load up the Scope DSP, XITE-2 would save Scope projects to (non volatile) SSD onboard the XITE - say in 127 slots selectable by Midi program change.

MIDI Prog Change ==> XITE2 (SSD Slot ==> Push device data to DSP's).

At home - load your favourite (live - eg non ASIO) Scope projects to slots on the XITE-2 SSD. Take your XITE-2 on the road and use it like a hardware mixer or synth expander. No Windozing. No PC. No laptop. No express cards, no protocol 'layers', no HDD crashes.

Kinda like a NOAH on GUI steroids & 1 RU instead of 2RU .... would get rid of Bud's NOAH 'loading' issues as a bonus :wink:
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valis
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by valis »

Back when I was working with Assaf and the entirety of CW was still together, I posited that something akin to what Mod Duo is now would probably fare well. I think that's also related to the ASB/Noah result, but not because of me simply because I think the ideas were being thrown around then and I caught wind of some of it.

In that era especially, having a rack of gear to process EDM/etc acts (especially in combo with mics and DI's etc) was giving way to the laptop set, and a small 2-3 dsp box that sat off your laptop made a ton of sense. Jimmy enjoys making more use of what's on hand in a very similar way I would say...

Anyway, I deal with what is on my tools and do love to see them evolve. I however don't see fretting over what our tools are not to be a good waste of time, at least in excess. If Holger showed up with renewed interest and Gary started showing optimism that might be different. But I take the tone of his responses to reflect what is, not what might be.
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valis
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by valis »

Not to belabor the point, but this was the goal for the post where I was suggesting to think of this as something akin to boutique gear. I bring this up again because I find the limits of tools just as you guys do. I also have an understanding for the roles that Scope plays for me, and just find other tools to explore when I've hit the limit. That being said, I'm excited for the new Scope host computer I'm gaining and look forward to putting some tools like Kron to proper use. I even look forward to owning an Xite someday myself...and I'm sure by then the frustration of PCIe will make me also laud the lack of the direct brain optical interconnects that everyone has to lease from ZuckerMusk & co. to get any 'real' work done.
jksuperstar
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by jksuperstar »

For a mini PC, M.2 is really PCIe. You might find an M.2 to PCIe riser or ExpressCard converter or cable. NVMe might also work for instead of M.2. however, msata is NOT PCIe.
fra77x2
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by fra77x2 »

This is interesting, thank you.

i found one with these specs along others:

Intel® 6th Gen. 14nm ULT Core™ i7/i5/i3/Celeron® 15W BGA CPU
CPU TDP: 15W
M.2 expansion slots (2x) supporting mSATA/ PCIe
SSD storage: 64GB up to 128GB (optional)

I will investigate more. Thanks again.
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katano
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by katano »

A bit late to the discussion :D

I just tested a Thunderbolt 3 Interface, the Presonus Quantum 2626. It's not a realtime instrument and virtual studio, but it does what I need and it does it very fast :)

As I rarely use realtime synths anymore but need the lowest latency possible for monitoring recording guitars, vocals etc. in the DAW, I decided to try a current and hopefully faster audio interface. I thought pci-e has the lowest latency to get into and out of the DAW. In fact, this is not entirely true anymore, see here for the latency comparison between the XITE-1 and the Quantum 2626 :o

Latency XITE.jpeg
Latency XITE.jpeg (93.33 KiB) Viewed 4450 times
Latency Quantum 2626.jpeg
Latency Quantum 2626.jpeg (85.81 KiB) Viewed 4450 times

On top, I get sub ms latency with 32 or even 16 samples (device block size) and everything is still a rock solid without any clicks and pops. I know it's still not realtime, but really close 8)

So to make the story short, to be clear, I still love the Creamware/Soniccore stuff and it's still sounding great, but I guess at some point it's in need of a major update regarding host connectivity, MacOS support and DAW integration. A Xite-1 with a Thunderbolt Interface, lower latency to the DAW and Mac support would be fantastic. One is allowed to dream :roll:

Not sure yet about the AD/DA and preamps quality compared to the setup I use now with the A16 Ultra and the TFPRO 16x, more testing is needed for sure...

Cheers,
Roman
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valis
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by valis »

Thunderbolt IS PCIe, using TB doesn't change anything for Xite except changing the cable type (and adding some cost for the chipset).

The amount of data that Xite moves dwarfs what an audio interface needs, though it might certainly be possible to update chipsets to reduce the number of safety buffers on the OS side, which is what Presonus has done. RME already documented that on Windows it's possible to completely eliminate the safety buffer (an additional buffer on top of the ASIO buffer that ensures the data send to and from the audio device is always populated). This is due to architectural changes in windows and the full virtualization of the PCIe bus which I explained in another thread.

None of that changes the fact that the Xite has to manage much more than just your ASIO buffer, and so the two are only comparable if your usage scenario for the Xite is simply as an ASIO device.
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katano
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by katano »

Good info valis, didn't know that much detail. And completely agree, as I do use the Xite only as an ASIO and I/O device these days, which is a waste of DSP obv...
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valis
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by valis »

If I had the discretionary spending for it, I'd make you an offer.
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astroman
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by astroman »

@Katano the time figures on your screenshot are plain calculated values.
For the real world amount you have to track 2 signals to compare (or do a null test with sample delay).
Iirc I‘ve seen many interface specs where measured latency was significantly larger than what you’d expect from buffer values.
(maybe that‘s due to the safety buffer Valis mentioned, but I‘m not that OS savvy)
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valis
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by valis »

Yes that sometimes is a cause, some only report the actual ASIO (or core audio) buffer size and not the overall software buffer size, some may also report hardware overhead (chipset buffer size in say ADAT or AD/DA conversion paths). So loopback & tracking tests are the right method, you are correct.
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katano
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by katano »

Good stuff, I‘ll do some measurements next time I‘m in the studio 🤗
jksuperstar
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by jksuperstar »

At least his point, true thunderbolt interfaces are common on laptops and can be added to desktops. That's a quick and appropriate, as well as equivalent to PCIe, step for Xite to continue development with.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by Bud Weiser »

jksuperstar wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:53 pm At least his point, true thunderbolt interfaces are common on laptops and can be added to desktops. That's a quick and appropriate, as well as equivalent to PCIe, step for Xite to continue development with.
Laptops are tricky.
You might have luck finding one w/ PCIexpress 34 slot and/or dedicated Thunderbolt (2 or 3) and dedicated USB3 and some USB2.
But the main issue is the BIOS/UEFI in these machines.
Most come w/ very crippled BIOS/UEFI not allowing all the user-adjustments needed for SCOPE/XITE to work well.

The one and only laptop I´ve found used was Lenovo W540 (Haswell/Broadwell Intel i7 quad, 6MB cache), 16GB RAM, SSD 240GB.
In this machine´s UEFI, you can activate/deactivate PCIexpress and Thunderbolt individually, set the machine to permanent stock speed and deactivate all energy saving stuff (EIST, C-States etc.).

Now you´d have to find all that in one of today´s laptops.

Let me know when you´ve found one.

:)

Bud
fra77x2
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by fra77x2 »

I would vote for USB 3. I read that USB 3.2 is capable of 20Gbps which is half the speed of thunderbolt 3. Considering the compatibility and also concerned about standarization which USB protocol is build to provide I think USB would be a better choice.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by Bud Weiser »

fra77x2 wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:16 am I would vote for USB 3. I read that USB 3.2 is capable of 20Gbps which is half the speed of thunderbolt 3. Considering the compatibility and also concerned about standarization which USB protocol is build to provide I think USB would be a better choice.
Won´t happen !
USB is "no-go" for SCOPE/XITE and will always be.

Thunderbolt w/ the recommended expresscard adapter works ... (or PCIexpresscard slot).
A connection on PCIe level is urgently needed.
No USB is.

:)

Bud
fra77x2
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by fra77x2 »

Can you tell why?
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garyb
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Re: Xite with Usb connector

Post by garyb »

because of the way data is handled in a computer.
usb is several layers of abstraction above where it needs to be. burst speeds are great. sustained throughput is not.

usb does not work.
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