Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

The Sonic Core XITE hardware platform for Scope

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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

It seems like when I have one of my Speakers on I get the issue. With the other speaker I also get the error "copy protection violation" from scope if I turn on or off the speaker.
I reconnected the other speaker, reversing the mains cable, and now it works again.

I did get an unusually loud pop when turning off a speaker, otherwise they seem fine. Could be that both developed the same issue and is root of the issue, but since it is both speakers I suspect something else at play.

Don't have a whole lot of cabling, and turned everything but computer, monitor, small mixer and speakers off. I will try disconnecting mixer and speakers and see if the issue remains even if there is no audio connection between the speakers and Xite.
dawman
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by dawman »

Check the feedback levels of any delay and decay length of any reverb.

Hate to keep harping on about SR Pro, but my default project boots everytime.
It remembers the exact settings for each and every parameter saving me the pain of having to control dozens of parameters.

Once you get a project that loads each and everytime, save it.

Anytime you get PCI or error message reload project from SR Pro preset list.
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

So if I do not connect Xite to the speaker, either directly via XLR, or via mixer, I can switch on and off speakers without getting an error.
Definitely some current going the wrong path somewhere :(
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valis
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by valis »

fra77x2
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by fra77x2 »

Your speakers most probably create a spike during power up that propagates through the system. You can try some power sockets extensions that offer some kind of surge protection (to power your speakers). You can also try powering the speakers after you have powered up Xite and before the scope software is running. Power down your speakers after you have closed the scope software.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surge_protector
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valis
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by valis »

What monitors? Which connection on the monitors and what type of cable?
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

So problem seems to be there is no actual ground connection. The equipment is connected to ground sockets, but only share ground with eachother.

Tested blocking ground on the speaker and the issue disappears.

I have a surge protector, but not sure if it does much good when not connected to ground.

I'm thinking to rather replace the surge protector to a simple strip with ungrounded outlets. At least it should not be a safety issue compared to now.

Of course ideally I should get ground drawn in, but I'm not using any Class I devices that are considered a hazard to use without connection to ground...so I will probably survive!!?? :)
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

valis wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:45 am What monitors? Which connection on the monitors and what type of cable?
Tannoy Reveal 802 connected with XLR.

According to the manual it says it should be connected to a grounded outlet, but it has the icon for double isolated appliance on the back indicating that it should be safe to use with a ungrounded outlet.

I guess ground is required for protection of the actual unit and correct performance, but not a safety requirement.
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garyb
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by garyb »

ground the building properly.

equipment with ics cannot stand bad ground for long,..
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

That cannot be strictly true though. A lot of equipment nowadays have no ground connection.

And at least in Sweden it is not at all uncommon with ungrounded outlets in dry rooms, which accept grounded plugs. So running for example a computer which comes with ground connection in an ungrounded outlet is extremely common. So if it was common issue we would have our computers, screens and TV's dying all the time.
fra77x2
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by fra77x2 »

Audio gear does not consume any considerable amount of power (like a vacuum cleaner or a water heater for example). The 3rd pin in sockets with "real/safety ground" most of the times is connected to nothing at least here in Greece. Use plain sockets with two holes and solve your problem and go on
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by nebelfuerst »

For audio equipment, a 3rd pin is rare. A PC requires a 3rd pin for safety regulation, as a failure in the powersupply could lead to the case connect to phase. In this case of failure, the CB is expected to trigger.
If you have a FI-switch in your installation, this will also trigger without a 3rd pin. (e.g. if you throw your device into water))
I repaired some chinese audio devices recently and I strongly recommend to install an FI-switch, as there are very dangerous , but cheap designs out there.
\\\ *** l 0 v e | X I T E *** ///
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

Yes, there is a GFI in the system, so should not be a hazard.

But of course feels dodgy with interaction through ground on the equipment with third prong causing malfunctions, so I do have some concern if it is safe for the equipment to have it connected like that.

But with no ground connected anywhere and the GFI, I guess it will be both stable and safe for me and equipment.
Full grounding would be ideal of course, but it is an old house and replacing wires would mean a lot of cosmetic work as well, so quite a project
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valis
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by valis »

My opinion is that you don't have enough voltage floating here to kill someone on the mic, so it's not a grounding issue in that sense. However it's clearly causing issues for the proper reference voltage if turning the speaker on & off causes PCI overflow.

Not doing this while the Xite on is clearly the easiest answer, but those sort of gremlins tend to lurk. And in that sense, Gary is correct. Ensuring proper grounding, if possible, tends to be the first place to minimize these effects.

Noise in your ground, and a differential in your ground (connecting gear that share shielded cables to opposite sides of the room) both cause these issues and others, and this is actually not the first time we've discussed this here. There was one other person with an Xite clearly having ground problems at one point, which were isolated and resolved, and I recall more of this back in the Scope PCI era (computer PSU's and the connected gear may introduce a LOT of noise).

Anyway, we can all stick with our opinions, but what matters here is that you stop the 'ground' acting as current in addition to the hot & cold pins in your XLR to RTS cable.
fra77x2
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by fra77x2 »

My idea is that the culprit are the speakers. Perhaps you should send them to an electrician to check their power supply. In my house I have a neon desk lamp which whenever I turn on my arduinos are reset. Well I have stopped using that lamp... A spike caused by devices is not something terrible or rare and the Xite connection is sensitive.

In any case if you deal with high voltages or you think something is wrong with your electrical supply you should get a professional electrician and not try to solve your problems by questions in a internet forum.
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valis
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by valis »

It might be true that the speakers are at issue, but whatever the case he's clearly made more progress on an internet forum than he did by sending his unit back to no avail. And not all professionals are equal, someone versed in building out power requirements for agriculture or heay machinery won't necessarily be versed in the issues we face.

Spindrift, have a look at my response in this thread here, and you'll maybe understand why that XLR cable's shielding is part of the problem. Or at least why it's capable of 'transmitting' the problem to your Xite when you power cycle the speaker. If your cable is the type that you can unscrew, that is a rough guide on how and where to break ground to avoid some of the issues we face in audio. I personally again prefer EBTech & Morley devices, and suggest you read the rest of that linked thread including this offsite link: http://www.tangible-technology.com/power/p2/power_2.htm
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

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Yeah, I'm suspecting the speakers as well considering the loud pop I had when turning off.
And nothing indicates that the is an issue with the power in the house...it is not great that it is not grounded, but the problematic current goes in the ground which is only connected to the devices connected to the splitters.

The actual issue which made me start the thread is not the switching on and off of speaker casing scope to error. Indeed that is not an issue in practice, I just switch on power for the whole setup at once and then boot computer. But consequently getting PCI overflow error when connecting to asio was not so obvious that it had to do with grounding.

I'm considering if I should upgrade the speakers anyway, probably having an electrician look at them cost more than they are worth anyway. I'm very used to Tannoys, and rather not have to train my ears again. The Gold 8 looks interesting, but also says they require grounded mains.
iLoud MTM has almost identical list of usage and safety statement,s but doesn't mention a need for ground. I contacted both Tannoy and IK to see when that have to say about connecting their speakers without ground.

@Valis
Yes, I considered lifting ground on the audio connection instead. Not sure in this case what the difference is compared to just use a ungrounded splitter. They will probably both solve the issue, but there seems to be quite conflicting opinions on if it is better to have the ground connected between the devices or not if connected to an ungrounded outlet.
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valis
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by valis »

There's a big difference, in that a splitter breaks the connection to (earth) ground, but still allows the crosstalk between the components. What form that is taking for you, I couldn't know without a scope or RTAs that works in the Mhz range (like the cable & telco guys use to analyze noise).

In any case, this is quite common to break ground, and again I simply use the following type of device in my studio because I find it easier to move things around without having to manually adjust cables or make new ones each time:

https://www.morleyproducts.com/hum-eliminator/

https://www.amazon.com/EBTECH-HE-2-Ebte ... B0002E4YH4

Btw this is what I use now to 'ground lift', rather than a 3 prong to 2 prong adapter (or breaking the pin): https://www.morleyproducts.com/hum-exterminator/

I actually have the ebtech version of that plug on each of my nearfields.

I did most of this to reduce noise and crosstalk on my analog mixer, I was getting -40 to -50 dB as my noisefloor before I started digging into this stuff further, and then later I was able to also largely remove not just broadband noise but very specific waveforms that showed up on an RTA that I always have strapped to my secondary outputs on my board. With all faders down, my board is now below -65dB for noisefloor and with all faders open *except for the outputs from onboard soundcards on computers* my noisefloor is still below -50dB (again, all faders UP with devices on, no eq/ etc). I consider that fair for a nonprofessional rig like mine.

I did have issues with one computer that never shut properly off, or on. If you search the forums here for other discussions around ground noise and grounding issues, you'll find someone mention that they replaced a UPS at some point and their strange booting issues with the computer attached to it went away. Seemed as if the UPS ramped up its power delivery too slowly or lacked in enough capacitance or something. This wasn't directly ground related, but it does point out that considering the power equation in our studio can help improve working conditions, and might even resolve what appears to be an RMA issue...whether that's with a computer or a soundcard attached to it.
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garyb
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by garyb »

there is nothing wrong with lifting grounds, but SOMETHING should be grounded in the chain.
if things aren't wired correctly, all kinds of crazy things can happen. ground schemes between devices, computers, synths, ad/das, preamps that have audio and midi connections are not standard. it's not uncommon to need to use ground lifts. if a device has a grounded plug, it really should be grounded, unless it is connected to another device that is grounded. if there is no ground at all in Greece, oh well...

it is always best to have the outlets wired correctly. no real studio would go together otherwise. it's just common sense. from there, there are protocols for what does and does not need ground connected.

it's probably true that it would be better to have no ground than a bad ground, but since it's very easy to have a proper ground connection available, there's no reason to be lazy. one wire and a long metal rod will probably be all it would take since you have 3 prong outlets. the ground is probably bad, not missing.

the pop when the computer powers on or off is something that can only be avoided with a volume knob or mute switch. it's normal.

definitely lift ground on the AC end, not the audio connector.

not all outlets are connected to the same breaker, sometimes even on the same wall(especially in old houses). you are more likely to experience grounding issues between devices when they are connected to outlets on different breakers.

sometimes computer cases are not well grounded...
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Spindrift
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Re: Suddenly getting PCI Master Overflow

Post by Spindrift »

Thanks for the informative answers.

@valis
I'm familiar with how to handle grounding issues in systems with ground connected. Both from engineering studies and experience. But I'm obviously a bit clueless about the scenario where there are no ground at all...we didn't cover it in class and I haven't been without ground before.
If you have ground it is certainly better to ground lift the XLR than the mains, but in my scenario I'm not so sure.

I do know spending $$$$ to redraw the power in the house and repainting the hallway we just did a year ago is the right thing to do. But it won't happen immediately, so trying to figure out the best way to handle it meanwhile.
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