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I´m trying to figure out which keyboard would suit my "needs" and preferences best.

I have an old Roland D20 atm, which works as my midi-keyboard, but honestly, I hate the feel of synth keyboards.
I do however, like the feel of old well used pianos. Some would propably call the feel a bit "sloppy", but I find it "like putting on well worn trousers". I'm sure this has to do with how the piano I grew up with felt to me.
Modern "real key feel"-pianos still has this, to me, wierd feeling of "no real mechanics/hammer action" going on.

So, in short, I'm looking for a midi capable keyboard with sloppy/well-used hammer mechanics feel. Any suggestions ?

Cheers,
Thomas

Best to go to the store and compare. I don't think you will get anything near a real piano feel on a fake piano. It doesn't seem to be a priority for keyboard players sadly.

petal wrote:
So, in short, I'm looking for a midi capable keyboard with sloppy/well-used hammer mechanics feel. Any suggestions ?

Cheers,
Thomas

There are several options, depending on your needs and budget.

Do you want internal sounds,- something like a digital piano or workstation type keyboard acting as your MIDI controller or do you want a controller only ?

The best controller without internal sounds, no sliders, knobs and buttons but w/ a dedicated piano action out there might be the KAWAI VPC-1 which is also great looking in a studio.
It´s build to play virtual instruments and comes w/ velocity curves for serveral hi end piano sample libraries as well as Modart Pianoteq physical modelling piano software.

Just introduced @NAMM and now on Musikmesse is the Physis (Piano) K4 which comes w/ a graded hammer Fatar action and it´s a fully fletched masterkeyboard for DAW- and live- usage.
It will be available in may.
Later there will come a 76 keys version w/ a lighter touch but also weighted hammer keybed.
I think the difference will be somewhat Fatar TP40GH wood vs TP40H (subdevisions: L or M = light or medium weighted)

There are more options in the DP department:

Cheapest w/ great action is CASIO PX-5S for about a grand in EUR or less in dollars.
Disadvantage,- no expression pedal input so you need a Midisolutions Pedal Controller unit to attach a expression pedal for outgoing MIDI.
Otherwise the PX-5S has all you need and sounds great itself too, covering all the bread & butter stuff not included in SCOPE.

Yamaha CP-4 Stage is an idea too as well as Studiologic NUMA Concert ...

I haven´t played it because it´s brand new,- but the most promising "budget" digital piano to me is the KAWAI MP7 !!!
Comes for EUR 1.499.- and will get a bit cheaper after some time I think.
But it kills already for the actual price because it´s triple sensor keybed like the CASIO PX-5S as also 256 voice polyphony, but offers all the pedal and switch connectors needed in a MIDI controller and great sounds too.
MIDI masterkeyboard features in KAWAI stage pianos are excellent and these are very easy to learn instruments in addition,- practically self explaining.

There´s also the heavier MP11 which is also much more expensive so the bang for the buck is the MP7 as were the MP6 vs the MP10 years ago.
Kawai makes their own actions and their acoustic pianos are sampled for every note and in 6 or more velocity layers,- so it´s only a matter of taste if you prefer Kawai or another brand digital piano.

You can go higher quality and then get 2-5% better sound but pay twice the price.

The internal sounds are always cool and good enough for gigging and in the studio, when not being satisfied, you can use software as the alternative.

The MP7 DP is cheaper than the VPC-1 is !

hope this helps

Bud

The action on the Casio Privia is great - me and Dawman have it - but agree w/ Bud the lack of pitch and mod wheel is annoying.

Piano stores have different models than where they sell synthesizers although not having a pitch/mod wheel is annoying, it is worth it for a better feel. This is where I would go to the store and not buy online.

dante wrote:The action on the Casio Privia is great - me and Dawman have it - but agree w/ Bud the lack of pitch and mod wheel is annoying.

The Casio PX5-S is a Privia model,- it´s the Privia Pro now.
Action is the same than in older Privias, the PX3 p.ex., but it´s triple sensor now which makes a SIGNIFICANT difference when doing repetitions (on 1 key) on the keyboard or when playing legato.

PX5-S comes w/ pitch and mod wheels as well as 6 sliders and rotary pots.
It´s all there MIDI wise and as a master keyboard,- and it plays w/ batteries as well.

But when you want to connect a MIDI CC pedal or two,- you´re lost unless you invest in the Midisolutions box and additional cables which I find cumbersome to set up and when you want the CC-pedal for the internal sounds too,- you have to merge the Midisolutions box back into the PX5-S via it´s MIDI In,- so you occupie the MIDI input.

As a pure masterkeyboard, the Physis K4 (and 5) with or without EX piano expansion, are the most promising for large keyboard rigs and that also means much software when you don´t use much hardware.
It´s the most complete machine.
Here´s a demo ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWas3TcBS7o
It will cost about EUR 2.600.- in the 88 note weighted keys version and the upcoming 76 keys version will be a bit under 2K.

With that background,- the Kawai MP7,- also because it is soundwise and FX wise identical w/ the MP11,- is the bang for the buck.
EUR 1.595.- list price incl. VAT 19%.
Streetprice will be cheaper for sure.
Demo here ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJz-eaDUhCk
Audio demos ...
http://www.kawaimp.com/mp11/media/audio/

MP11 and MP 7 = same sounds, same amp sims, same organ sim, same 128 fx
MP11 has balanced outs and the much more improved piano action for the dedicated pianoplayer purist and some more piano sounds.
They say 32 from 48 sounds of the MP11 are in the MP7 as well.

But, MP6 action was already excellent and MP7 action is improved,- so what ?

Bud

great post(s).

dante wrote:The action on the Casio Privia is great - me and Dawman have it - but agree w/ Bud the lack of pitch and mod wheel is annoying.

Not annoying for me.
I need both hands when I play, and since I run everything into the BCF 2000, sustain, Leslie speed switch and sustain can be taken there and assigned to all Keyboards in my rig.
Even my ModWheel on Solaris can be used to control any keyboard, so as long as you got the BCF, you can basically buy the best action you prefer on a keyboard and use it.
Even calling up a sostenuto function and assign it to the Expression Pedal that I use in PianoTeq 4 Pro for their excellent Harmonic Pedal, and to hold a chord (sostenuto) while pounding out octaves and rhythms.
As much as I hate to agree with Braincell, he is right though that if True Piano Action is wanted, you'll need a Piano.
This is obvious when you decide to try other libraries that respond to the same old boring (yawn, yawn) 0-127 MIDI Spec.
PianoTeq 4 Pro uses 1-16000 for velocity and even then on the best fake keyboard maybe 12 layers can be attained by the human hands.
Otherwise, one can record the Piano parts they want into the sequencer, edit them with dynamic automations, then delete all notes and use the automation to change while you perform in realtime.

dawman wrote: Otherwise, one can record the Piano parts they want into the sequencer, edit them with dynamic automations, then delete all notes and use the automation to change while you perform in realtime.

great

I'm very, very picky about this.

Casio Privia series is good.

I'm personally okay with Yamaha's DP line. (p250, recent cp series) Roland's rd-700/800 is good too. But these DPs are ridiculously expensive considering you probably won't use their internal sounds anyway. Personally, I'll probably stick with the Yamaha line since I like how they've built it so you can stack synths / laptop on top of it. It's actually been my desk for the past 8 years.

But as far as action is concerned, the high grade fatar stuff is definitely worth checking out. (physis) I'm very curious about Physis but I haven't seen one yet so can't vouch for it.

It seems to me though, at the end of the day you just pick one and practice the hell out of it, and then it can become your favorite. (because you know it best) A lot of it also comes from tweaking the library / sound module so it behaves you want it to. Seems to me that aspect of it always comes more from the sound generator than the hardware controller itself. I swear by Pianoteq 4 since it can be customized with such detail. I made a piano of my dreams patch that works really well with my p250, and have just stuck with that combo for everything, for the past 5 years or so.

Action is all about personal taste, so it's subjective.. (assuming it's not total shit and above a certain level realism) Still, it's good to think about what you like and parameterize it a bit. There are some big parameters you can work with. First is global: Graded or not. Graded is ranked as higher grade, but you might not need it, or like it. I happen to like it, but if you just play EP, then it probably won't matter. Then at the individual key level: initial force (weight) it takes to actuate the action. Could be very light, like Nord's, or damn heavy like Kawai's (IMHO). Then as the hammer swings, there's the amount of momentum it takes on. It's usually a function of how much force it takes to actuate it, but not always the case. I don't like a lot of swing since it's gets tiresome and squishy to play. There is also a point in the downstroke where the weight is released. Where and how distinct that feels is also a decision point. The the key bottoms out. Some like if fluffy, some like it hard. I like it hard, or at least distinct. Squishy in my book is very bad, but some really like it. Then you release your finger, and the key swings back, picking up the weight somewhere along the way. Not sure if I have a conscious preference for how that happens, but I'm sure there are people who have specific preferences as to how this happens. Where the key "picks up" the weight again, allowing for another downstroke is important to some, I guess if you play super fast and play repeated 32nd notes on the same key and all that fancy stuff, but that doesn't apply to me at all, so I don't really care.

So following a single keystroke, you can define what you like at each phase, and pick accordingly. At least by breaking it down into steps, it will allow you to compare different units at the same checkpoints.

BTW, can you describe the old piano you've got in mind? Is it an upright or a grand? Or maybe even an old spinet? And how old of a piano are you talking about? Just that will define a lot of the parameters. Typically, an upright will not have graded action. Uprights have light actuation weight, and spinets, even lighter. The down stroke on uprights and spinets will also be pretty fast with little or almost no feeling of a "swing". Really old pianos that have not been well maintained will have a hard bottom. (and a packed, hard hammer) And the recovery will be somewhat inconsistent from key to key, but on average slower than well maintained or new pianos. Spinets have a very distinctive feel about them that I haven't really internalized.. and I'm not sure if you'll find a good replication of that.. they feel kind of flimsy so not sure if that would be the logical thing to emulate.

Wow!

I'm impressed with the sheer amount of knowledge assembled and shared here in my simple request for suggestions to a decent midi-capable (preferebale OSC-capable) hammer action keyboard.

Thank you very much all of you!

I don't think I'm ever gonna find what I'm looking for in a midi capable keyboard. The reference I have in my head is both an old (100+ years) upright piano and a few old grands I've come across - Then there's my Wurlitzer 200A, which also somewhat have this kind of action, all though it is more uneven from key to key than what I'm looking for. The thing I like is that they are all "light weighted" in the amount of pressure I need to put on the key in order to make it actually hit the strings. To me, this type of action allows for a very soft playing style, which I seem to have a preference for.

An interesting observation is that if the velocity profile is "right" on a software piano, I'm able to get close to the feeling I'm looking for, even on my old Roland D20 which I'm currently using as my midi-keyboard - This is an old example posted here a few years ago:

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30820


Once again - thank you very much for pointing out good obtions to me on this matter!

Long live PlanetZ!
Thomas

have you checked out Nord's hammer action models? Wurlitzer 200a being on your list I think is a good thing, since it's a simplified action, and mechanically much closer to how hammer action controllers work. I do agree the 200a having a very particular feel that got me hooked (on my friend's, that he dug out from some sort of thrift store) and I haven't seen anything like it since. Anyway, I bring up Nord since it seemed to me they were going for a "general" ep kinda feel, rather than a grand piano feel, although it's still some sort of middle ground between the light and compact ep touch and the more robust acoustic piano touch. I also think ep keys have shorter key travel (distance you can depress) than a full piano keybed.

I remember your tune posted earlier. PMI Old Lady eh, hehe. That was a favorite of mine too a bunch of years ago. The tune sounds like it's a chill out piece you might play on a rather heavy weighted grand. Soft hammers (or just well maintained), long body, and huge dynamic range that requires lots of force to max out. Reminds me of a huge Steinway concert grand (forgot which model) that I was forced to play a homework sonata piece I had to write, and I totally didn't have enough power to play it. But man did my soft, weak ass notes sound nice. Then right after me, a tiny girl who was a concert pianist (who was taking composition class for the heck of it) came and played the hell out of it and I was like "oh, this piano could do THAT??".

nords use fatar keyboards they use the 88TP/40GH, 88 keys

for the hammer piano action

and you can make a custom job with this keyboard and a doepfer control with your own case be it metal or wood

you can buy the parts direct from doepfer.de

you can also get it in smaller sizes but are special order

as are the wooden key versions

i would say for me the best feel was the kurzweil k250 and the midiboard as a piano action

oh ya, doepfer.. There was a period of time when I was seriously considering the doepfer lmk4+.

That is a difficult question, because there are different keyboards for different people and ways of playing. I don't know if my opinion can really be of any use to you, not being the keyboard my main instrument, but I can say I would be very happy with a Kawai VPC-1, a friend of mine has one and it feels superb, its touch and feeling is just perfect for me.

What Ken suggests about playing a lot a chosen keyboard until you become acquainted with it, it is crucial, sometimes you will not like a keyboard in the first week, then you will find that it is perfect for you in a couple of months.

I would go to several keyboard player forums, so you can have several opinions about the same thing. You will find that people will always divide into, at least, two categories or tastes. For instance, as a bass player, I am an “Ibanez man”, in the other hand we have the “Warwick men”. Both trademarks make really good instruments, but they target different ways of playing, stiles and sound. You have to find which one is your desk, then sit there and try those keyboards which are most famous for people like you, and choose the one you most like.

If you choose a keyboard which is mostly used by your most preferred musicians, you will play save, because you will end up using similar techniques, etc. This is totally true.

Did you know, you can play this keyboard with your keyboard? Almost all of the keys work.









































Sorry, I couldn't resist

Jeg ved hvor du bor

I know where you live

I've been looking at many of the kind suggestions you have given me, and many of them makes good sense all though the price doesn't really. Paying 2 grand or more for what would mostly be used as a glorified midi-keyboard is more than I'm willing to pay.
If the keyboard came with an interesting synth it would make more sense to me. Which is why I've been looking at the Kurzveil K2500X(s)/K2600X. I have never touched one, but it does come with weighted keys and aftertouch and a synth, and it is half the price of say a Nord Electro, which looks very interesting to me as well.

petal wrote:I've been looking at many of the kind suggestions you have given me, and many of them makes good sense all though the price doesn't really. Paying 2 grand or more for what would mostly be used as a glorified midi-keyboard is more than I'm willing to pay.
If the keyboard came with an interesting synth it would make more sense to me. Which is why I've been looking at the Kurzveil K2500X(s)/K2600X. I have never touched one, but it does come with weighted keys and aftertouch and a synth, and it is half the price of say a Nord Electro, which looks very interesting to me as well.

Mmmm, I don’t know… I think your priority is getting the best keyboard you can afford. If you start dividing your attention to something else, which is “secondary” to what you really need and want, you may end up buying something cheaper yes…, but not adequate for your feeling as a musician, and then disappointment can be too much!

If I were at your place, I would concentrate in what I need to get and nothing else, which I understand is a good MIDI weighted keyboard. More synths? Do you really need them? I don't believe so, I have heard your music for a long time, and you have everything you need I understand, in terms of synths.

If you pay for a good instrument, time will pay you back with a tremendous fulfillment, in the other hand, if you try to save “jus there”, where inspiration flows, you may end up frustrated, or even worse, uninspired!

It is a musician's friend advice, take it in the best possible way