PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

I just did a tune on sq8l vsti, which is a ensonique s80 emu, and the sound got me thinking back to my old sy99.. I had no clue what I was doing with that synth back in high school, but it did teach me a lot about synthesis.. I first went into the AWM (wav) portion, figured that the FM layer was too confusing and didn't help much with the sound. So I made a lot of patches that were solely sample based. Then I got into FM, and got blown away by its crazy 6 op fm engine.. most of my sounds ended up sounding like static. It wasn't 'till 3 years later when I started DSP class in college that I understood what all that was about. By then I was making FM patches in max/msp, and programming away on the Trinity, and then Triton.

But the synth that taught me most about synthesis would have to be the nord modular. I bought it after the nord lead craze, thinking it's the catchall that would cover everything nord lead didn't. At the time (I already had triton with the analogue synth card) I understood some bits of VA, how to make patches, etc.. but after setting up nord mod, I was stumped with how much work it took to get any usable sound. I was very active in the email group, learned a great deal.. I spent a lot of time making drum patches and step sequenced drums that would shuffle by itself.. kind of a rudimentary "humanize" effect I guess. And wrote a lot of tunes using my newly built robot drummer. That was during college, and I was doing DSP courses along side nor mod, so it was easy to convert what I learned in school to nord mod patches.

Then it was SFP, or pulsar.. I went to pulsar because I knew it had a good mod platform (after trying max/msp with slow, meager results) and the transition was smooth and painless. Mod 2 at the time had limitations and bugs, but after messing with nord mod for over a year, I knew what was up, and everything kind of did what it was supposed to.

So for me, the big transition point was nord mod. It taught me to listen to sounds with a different ear. Take things appart, listen for harmonic structure, separate noise, etc. It was ear training of its own kind. It's great tho, cuz since then I'd be able to (or anyone who knows modular) sit down in front of a new synth and almost instantly be able to create sounds I want. Mod environment does spoil you tho. lol

minimoog.

i still don't know squat about synthesis. the dx-7 drove that home.

I think 6 op fm synths are sort of and exception tho.. It takes a very specific skillset to manage that thing.. be able to dial in sounds blind and getting what you'd expect off the bat.. Literally like coding. I know some people can do it, but that's definitely rare. Sort of gets into the kontakt realm where even if you could learn to build stuff from scratch, it's not really effective to do so because of the work involved. imho, anyway.

But regarding 6op fm, after extensively programming FM for a sega genesis game soundtrack copy I did recently, I finally figured out how to get all the algorithms (or routing patterns) under control. Still that stuff I feel is sort of beyond human perception, though the output can be useful. Dunno, for me, I still haven't figured out a way to fit that into my creative workflow without it becoming a "patching day".

SY77 taught me most about midi, before I had any software. Loved the synth but it was so heavy for gigging.
Probably Inferno (don't laugh) and Vanguard for synthesis, although I'm still rubbish but learning.

Now I find out that I'm not the only one who couldn't get my head around the DX7. All those wasted years of thinking I'd never understand synths.

DX7. I was forced to learn to program it in order to make my own sounds. Once you learn the difference between a carrier (adds to amplitude) and a modulator (adds to timbre) the rest just follows.

I would admit though that programming DX7 sounds on the DAS F07 would have been a lot more of a challenge without the DX7 charts handy.

For subtractive - my first synth - SH-09. About as simple as you can get but the principles could be applied to most synths up to the Jupiter-8.

I never learned FM synthesis. No knobs = no joy.

Mr Arkadin wrote: No knobs = no joy.

I still don't know, but I keep twisting others presets, and making them sound different, then put my name on them so folks will think I know what Im doing.

My first hardware synth.. The Access Virus B

I must have read the manual and the programming synths manual about 6 times! i Bought it used so only got them as pdf files.. my printer was never the same again

It paid off.. I made a bank full of default patches, with some time experimenting and referring back to the manuals everything made sense. After that i could use pretty much any subtractive synth to get the sound i wanted

After that i spent time learning an Emu Ultra sampler inside out.. to the point i was using it as a sample based synth. Great fun!

Hard to say,- depends on which synthesis though ...

Before I buyed my 1st synth, I played around w/ a ARP Odyssey "white face" which was in our reahearsal room but belonged to another keyboard player.

My 1st one was a Formant Modular then, which I used for a period of time.
Was o.k. for usage at home and some learning, but not for gigging.
Because PPG was just founded at my hometown,- I buyed a compact PPG analogue monophonic then,- the PPG 1020 ...
Well, it sounded nice and I did some studio sessions w/ it,- but buyed a Minimoog D in addition which I used most and until the 1st (for me) affordable analogue poly w/ reliable preset management was released,- SCI Prophet 5.
Not much difference between Minimoog D and Prophet 5 except polyphony, poly mod and preset management.
Next thing I learned more from was Oberheim OB-8 w/ page 2 modulations which were an upgrade.
DX7 was some kind of revelation soundwise and it was a welcome addition to the analog poly synths.
I dived into the editing of FM,- very cumbersome w/ the small display of the DX7,- so buying a computer and bankmanager/editor app helped,- Commodore SX and an app from Hubertus Maas 1st,- later ATARI and Steinberg Synthworks DX/TX.
I still own the Synthworks programs for ATARI and they are dead on for my FM gear (DX7mkII FD, TX816 and TG77).

When I replaced Oberheim OB-8 by Oberheim Xpander,- that was a big step forward in regards of modulations and sound programming.

I´d say, I learned most about synthesis by using Minimoog D, Oberheim Xpander and 6-OP FM synthsis together.
This combo nailed most sounds needed for everything and I rarely needed a sampler in addition for a long time.

Well, I used AKAI and EMU range samplers too later, but prefered synthesis over sampling ever.
In fact, I´ve found "synths" like Roland D50/550 and KORG Wavestation more interesting than using a sampler w/ the exception of EMU EOS samplers offering Z-Plane filters, mod matrix and advanced MIDI implementation.

It´s cool we have most of the gear mentioned above in SCOPE,- I´d only hope we´d see a dedicated Oberheim device for SCOPE one day even there are some features existing in ZARG devices and Modular.
I also hope for a 6-OP FM device reading sysex from DX7 because re-programming FM patches in p.ex. DAS F07 is too time consuming for me.
STS samplers reading EMU sample format would be cool too.

Bud

Started with Moog Prodigy & Sequential circuits Prophet one.
I could do a lot with them !
Later on, DX7 which I first hated but it was challenging and it gave me a job opportunity with Yamaha France.
TX816 is when I started loving FM synthesis. It was much thicker.
Casio FZ1 was interesting with it's additive synthesis engine on top of the sampler.

I've lost programming interest whith modern computers, too many presets, age and lazyness probably too.

Scope's Modular, omnisphere and gigastudio would be the one I'd take to mars.

By the cringe, Bud
You've spent some money in your time eh? Mind you I had quite a few hardware setups since I bought my first (dare I mention it) Korg 700

Ain't it great now when you can get a software synth for the price of a good meal out

Andy_F wrote:My first hardware synth.. The Access Virus B

I must have read the manual and the programming synths manual about 6 times! i Bought it used so only got them as pdf files.. my printer was never the same again

It paid off.. I made a bank full of default patches, with some time experimenting and referring back to the manuals everything made sense. After that i could use pretty much any subtractive synth to get the sound i wanted

After that i spent time learning an Emu Ultra sampler inside out.. to the point i was using it as a sample based synth. Great fun!

Ah, you're definitely closer to my generation then. Virus definitely came as a shock when most other synths were starting to hit the wall of trying to do VA via samples. Virus was the first VA style hw synth for a lot of my friends too.

I think what's interesting is that while the "realtime" analogue group went moog, oberheim, prophet, dx7, wavestation (etc), the later VA group went through synths like waldorf stuff, novation stuff, virus, nord, prophecy (and all derived VA add on cards).. Which came at a shorter interval than the "realtime" era, so everyone's path is much less linear. Pretty crazy that now, there are so many VA style synths on the market, every major player has a multitude of models.. they sound kinda crappy, but still good enough to learn synth patching, meaning, subtractive or simple fm patching is definitely becoming a more general vocabulary. Nice change compared to the workstation days in the 90s when it was either use the preset, or edit using the tiny screen and pulling your hair out.

Neil B wrote:By the cringe, Bud
You've spent some money in your time eh?

Yep !

But I also made all the money w/ music,- so it was o.k. !

Neil B wrote: Ain't it great now when you can get a software synth for the price of a good meal out

Indeed, that´s really cool,- in principle ...

But it´s also a fact,- in my age, my eyes want to look at big real knobs from time to time and not at tiny VST GUI pics.
In addition, I´ve never found any generic physical controller device to control/program all these virtual instruments and the mouse/computer keyboard is very cumbersome often.
Because I own and owned the hardware synths, I´m familiar w/ most GUIs of SCOPE big synths which is an advantage,- and they generally sound better than VST and there´s no latency when operating SCOPE standalone on XITE and using it´s MIDI input.
Since I have XITE-1 and SCOPE 5.1, my Roland MKS80 and MKS70 as well as Oberheim Matrix-1000 became obsolete and went into the sales.
But even I like Minimax a lot, I doubt my Minimoog D will be dumped.
Having Minimoog D in front of me and playing it´s keys is a different experience than controlling Minimax over MIDI.
OTOH, I also doubt I´ll schlep a Minimoog D on a stage anymore,- at least because it might get stolen in a minute.

Up to now, no VSTi replaced any hardware synth here now, but the hardware samplers are definitely obsolete for me.
I´m urgently waiting for SCOPE 6 w/ OSC support and Copperlan MIDI to realize my imagination of hardware/software combo rig.
Controlling SCOPE/XITE-1 using some kind of touchscreen/tablet PC application mounted to my keystand and connected by a CAT5e cable to the LAN switch would be amazing.
Controlling most important parameters of SCOPE big synths works (partially) by using KURZ PC361 physical controller elements already, but not in depth, because of limited count of knobs, sliders and buttons.
I imagine a combination of both would do the trick.

Bud

JD-800 was ,my first real synth I bought and it was great, because it was all available in front of you, not many menu joggling, a knob or fader under your fingers for the most parameters, very quick to program. I sold it one day and I still wish I had not.

Ah Ken, I think it is not available anymore but maybe you'll find a way, the Nrg-a vsti is a oldie but I still really like it.
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/nrg_a_by_synthepolis

kensuguro wrote:Pretty crazy that now, there are so many VA style synths on the market, every major player has a multitude of models.. they sound kinda crappy, but still good enough to learn synth patching, meaning, subtractive or simple fm patching is definitely becoming a more general vocabulary. Nice change compared to the workstation days in the 90s when it was either use the preset, or edit using the tiny screen and pulling your hair out.

The only hardware keyboard coming w/ some kind of VA implementation I use is a Kurzweil PC3 series machine.
The filters sound really good, but it´s limited in the LFO (speed/range) and envelope department and the "sync" OSCs alias like hell.
V.A.S.T. DSP programming is deep and I´m far away from mastering this architecture.
Unfortunately, the very good looking and easy to understand Soundtower software editor is very buggy and is able to crap out the machine and ruins your patches sometimes.
Also in V.A.S.T, the main disadvantage is losing a lot of polyphony when DSP patches become complex.

But a KURZ PC3 series keyboard IS the best MIDI engine/ MIDI controller you can find up to now.
SETUP Mode w/ 16 freely programmble ZONEs is ideal controlling several SCOPE synths by the same physical controllers and using the ZONE-mute buttons.

Bud

The Nord Mod and Nord G2 were my staging grounds. Like Ken, I've spent a lot of time just dissecting sounds, building things up from scratch, modifying other synth architectures, and trying my own hand at emulations to learn from them.

Mod IV is in my pocket now, but just trying to find the time at the moment to live in it. SCOPE has so many tools to play with and learn from, that it's just mind boggling. Literally.

I also find it interesting that almost all electronic instruments began life as an emulation...Bob Moog was trying to recreate cellos and clarinets, etc. Virtual Analog...self described. Up until today, where there are so many emulations of other gear, emulations of emulations that have eventually evolved into completely other forms of synthesis. Samplers were even an attempt to recreate the sound of anything. But then it was the creative use of those tools that began the strange and bizarre tangents we hear now. Still, to this day, mixing and mastering techniques often involved breaking the sound spectrum into classic components related to orchestras or the original 4 piece band (rhythm, bass, guitar, vocals). Doing so with purely electronic generated music presents it's own difficulties, with advice in recording and mixdown, even effect use, going back to what is known and "proven" over time...which still is largely limited to terminology and techniques developed for the orchestra and 4 piece band.

You've started a fun & interesting topic off here Ken. Well done.

ChrisWerner wrote:Ah Ken, I think it is not available anymore but maybe you'll find a way, the Nrg-a vsti is a oldie but I still really like it.
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/nrg_a_by_synthepolis

Looks like a versatile practical synth, I'll see if it's still floating around. Any particular reason you like it over others? Characteristic sound?

jksuperstar> so sad the mod guy isn't at clavia any more. I think he moved on to a different company right?

neil b> lol, ya, I guess we might as well be talking about synths again. Seems like planetz's becoming a place for all topics but synths. I kind of got in this pattern of just using Live's freebie synth for everything, because I pretty much gave up on vst synths, but having looked around, I'm rediscovering the fun of using pre-made synths. It's also nice to see some nostalgic names popup, and I'd remember a favorite sound from that particular synth and try to remember how to recreate it. Good memory refresher.

jksuperstar wrote:
Mod IV is in my pocket now, but just trying to find the time at the moment to live in it. SCOPE has so many tools to play with and learn from, that it's just mind boggling. Literally.

Also here, not much time to go into Modular (III) in depth,- but the winter is coming and there will be enough long, dark and cold nights then.
Modular IV upgrade is the next I´ll buy from S|C.

Bud