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autotune mangling

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:21 am
by kensuguro
I helped clean up and melodyne a vocal recording only to find out that it got totally butchered and mangled with autotune at the end.. not even good autotune, bad autotune with wrong note detection littered throughout. Ugh, the trouble I went through to make it sound perfect. Anyway, just venting frustration.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:36 am
by ChrisWerner
Yep, it can drive you crazy and more than that, its hard for me to see a performance sliced and (butchered is a nice word) down by a machine or program on your screen.

But it is a mighty tool for example, timing issues on a drum track.

Melodyne, not autotune...

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:04 am
by Nestor
Everything voice related is magical, but difficult to manage. For me it is the most difficult to handle in general in any track, being it my own voice or other people’s voices. With most instruments you find always a way to fix a problem, with voices, somtimes..., and if it is too difficult, it is better to make another take, sorry, because the more you touch it the worst it sounds.

I think that Melodyne is superior to autotune but requires a hard working arranger sitting there for a few hours everytime, while autotune can fix sometimes, the same things very well, effortlessly.

I don’t think autotute is bad software but it is hard to master yes. Melodyne “final output” sounds more natural too.

Some serious engineers swear by autotue and others, curiously, hate it.

I think that both softwares are great but used for different purposes. If you want to heavily process a voice, I would chose autotune, but for pitch correction of minor mistakes from the singer I would use melodyne. Then for pop music and the like, autotune will do a nice job, for unplug or mellow songs, I would definitely use Melodyne.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:51 am
by next to nothing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Eknck-Mug

a clip from a norwegian talent show similar to "idol". Just skip to around 1:20 and listen to around 1:40 and you will understand the importance of proper settings, especially for live use...

I know I sound grumpy but my opinion is that even if it saves a lot of producers from headaches and generates a lot of revenue out of shit artists, it is taking away a lot of the qualities that lies in imperfections.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:01 am
by Nestor
next to nothing wrote:my opinion is that even if it saves a lot of producers from headaches and generates a lot of revenue out of shit artists, it is taking away a lot of the qualities that lies in imperfections.
Absolutely true

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:45 pm
by kensuguro
Nestor wrote: I think that Melodyne is superior to autotune but requires a hard working arranger sitting there for a few hours everytime, while autotune can fix sometimes, the same things very well, effortlessly.

I don’t think autotute is bad software but it is hard to master yes. Melodyne “final output” sounds more natural too.

Some serious engineers swear by autotue and others, curiously, hate it.

I think that both softwares are great but used for different purposes. If you want to heavily process a voice, I would chose autotune, but for pitch correction of minor mistakes from the singer I would use melodyne. Then for pop music and the like, autotune will do a nice job, for unplug or mellow songs, I would definitely use Melodyne.
Ya, that's the thing, I already had done a complete melodyne treatment, AND THEN the producer applied autotune either for effect or whatever, with absolutely incorrect pitch detection. At least MIDI in the notes dammit.

The autotune clip was funny.. why on earth would you use autotune in a singing contest? Kind of defeats the purpose. But oh well, I guess it's a sort of quality assurance thing. I personally would love to get a lead track free of any fixing other than for bad timing. Chorus tracks I'd want more precise pitch. Nothing better than recording it right in the first place, but denser chorus work tends to get wonky even with the best vocalists, and melodyne can clean up the harmony without the robot effect. I find that many good lead vocalists aren't necessarily good chorus vocalists.. kind of a different beast I guess. I think chorus needs more musical sensitivity and a sense of design since it's not just pitch, but different notes (functions) should be executed with appropriate tonality depending on what effect you want from the passage.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:36 pm
by Nestor
Natural, yes, this is the best when talking about voices to my ears too.

There is a teenager singer called Jade that has recorded everything straight without using pitch correction or any special treatment for her voice, sort of old time way of recording. It was the choice of the musician-arranger and engineer to do it this way, I think it was a good choice doing it this way.

Of course, in this short video where she is actually performing the recording of one of the songs, it is not musically something magnificent or anything like that, it’s music for teenagers, but it is unquestionable that singing the song “from beginning to end” in a single go it is a plus that rarely singers offer in their album today. This is cool because the mood is the same and it matches all along the song with the different parts. Then, no treatment to the voice gives this special touch NtN is talking about. Not great music, but I definitely recognize a great mood that would have been killed through our modern over processing of voices.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tIMtek-tiA

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:50 pm
by kensuguro
I think the Jane girl already has sufficient musicianship, in her case comping different takes probably won't be as disruptive as they'd probably be pretty consistent anyway. It's much more evident with less talented performers who are inconsistent, and also with recording conditions where mic distance or singer position shifts a lot.

But 1 take definitely has particular qualities that you almost never hear any more. The vocal's strain or push usually leaves a bit of different tonality esp from verse 1 chorus into verse 2, and then last few choruses tend to be sung with different intonation. Also, longer takes create natural dynamics since the vocalist either pushes or pulls back using the current point of reference, so if he's already pushing, and wants to push harder, you'll get a really powerful performance. But with comping it usually sounds all the same, with all phrases sounding the vocalist just started singing, still trying to find a place to sit in the tracks. And because the point of reference is lost, the changes in dynamics or tension is usually not as fluid. That's just bad musicianship I think.

I usually do heavy comping on chorus and for leads do it in 1 take. At most I'll swap out in units of verses. So I may comp the second verse, but usually not in smaller units. If the vocalist has trouble going through the song in a continuous take, I just tell them to go home and practice. I mean, it's their song.. so at least be able to sing it right all the way through..

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:57 pm
by Nestor
kensuguro wrote: go home and practice.
Same side of the rode in here.

People have become lazy with so much technology making everything for them.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:33 pm
by dawman
I only get upset when my son asks me to record a take for him when he could easily do the part himself after an hour of concentration, everyone is in a hurry and craves instant gratification.
I pissed him off the other night when I usually tell him he did good. He has a remix of audio clips that he " flowed " over and I told him he did good, but the audio clips are lame.
He asked me why, and I said it sounds to me like a Book where someone took a chapter from 13 different books, then released it as a new Novel.....Oh well.. :P

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:18 am
by garyb
i don't see any problem with comping parts, after all it's a STUDIO recording. all the tools are available. using them as a crutch is lame, but most people are used to hearing things that have been comped or corrected. even 30 years ago, people were comping, punching in and splicing individual tracks on tape with tape and razor blades.

it depends on what the art is. if it's supposed to be a one-off performance, then by all means, no punches, no comping.

and yes, people need to be ABLE to sing in key and sing a whole song. if they can't, it still will be lame, even "corrected". there is a lot of music out there that is just bad.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 11:10 am
by Nestor
Talent should be present in music above all, how to deny it, but much of the new music today has become a new fashion for many young people, it has become a way of being cool and having an interesting status in front of their partners, that is why thousand of tracks have this strong frivolity flavor. I can see everywhere many young people building up a theatrical scene when they sing, in most cases over-performed, but they have learned to move, dress and behave in a particular way, but they don’t actually feel what they are doing, they are into a theatrical performance with the aim to impress the listener, it is an empty show with the face of strong feelings that are not really felt.

A good singer is always amazing to listen at and nothing is more emotional than a good expressive voice.

Technology has allowed thousands of “people that sing” to embody the role of a natural singer. Anyway, good singers have never existed in great numbers, only some people truly own a good voice for a start, and very few can master and do whatever they want to do with it.

I don’t think it is a bad thing people having easy access to a personal studio to record their voices just for fun, the problem is the lack of sincerity when they sing, because they want to shine instate of being simply what they are. I have heard people with a good voice and almost perfect intonation that were disgusting to listen at, nobody will like them because the expression was so self-centered that you felt uncomfortable, in the other hand, I have heard people singing out of tune and out of time, but your heart would feel full of emotion, so what…

I think that it is cool to process a voice that is already good, to achieve even better results, the bad philosophical side of it is trying to fix the performance of someone that should probably not sing in the first place.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 1:09 pm
by garyb
i agree.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:56 pm
by hubird
that's why I always say: no content please.
meaning: no words.
meaning: no human voice (unless sampled of course).

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:17 pm
by garyb
yes, let's keep those pesky humans out of music.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:20 pm
by Nestor
garyb wrote:yes, let's keep those pesky humans out of music.
:lol:

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:31 am
by hubird
garyb wrote:yes, let's keep those pesky humans out of music.
yes, that's what I meant.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:14 am
by garyb
:)


let's face it. humans have little to do with music anyway.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:45 am
by kensuguro
that's sort of the sad reality of the use of words or the human voice. It is much easier to find a performer who can play an instrument (not voice) to a higher degree than a typical person who calls themselves a singer. And lyrics.. they just seem to appear out of nowhere. There are very well written lyrics that I've heard in the past, but perhaps those are even harder to come by than a great singer. But when done right, I think lyrics and voice can complement a piece, or at times even drive it.

On the other hand, instrumentals have definitely become less mainstream since the advent of pop stars. Without a face on the music, and a voice (recognizable), many people cannot associate with the music. Which is the degradation of the musical ear in most people, but also make instrumentals extremely difficult to market and promote. I'm not against it though, or rather listen to music without lyrics since the lyrics usually don't mean much or make the melody sound awkward anyway.

Re: autotune mangling

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:33 pm
by hubird
In August I was at OZORA festival, Hungry, about 35,000 visitors.
6 Days of almost 24h non stop (psy trance) music.
6 Days of independent music and no voices, haleluja, for reasons Nestor described so perfectly.

edit: sorry, edited, didn't notice there was already a reply on the next page...