PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Hey all!

I have been using scope since 3.1c with the luna II card

About 2 years ago I went to version 4.5 with a pro card and it seems every problem I have ever had with scope is because of XTC. Things like not being able to use the synths in XTC mode with all 4 cores on your processor turned on is a real shame (the midi overflow freeze) and not being able to take full advantage of sidechaining or the mixers in scope or the vocoder etc. I know there are some solutions but they seem to be a lot of trouble. Everyone is still waiting on version 5 with XTC and honestly I just want to move on. I am going to rerig my setup, so backwards compatibility isnt an issue. I am starting fresh!

I can get the busses to the scope mixers and all, but what is the best workflow for recording to audio? If I route back to cubase there is latency with channels that have scope modules. So I cant have a chain of vsts and then a scope plugin and then back again without more issues. I haven't really broken the mindset of that workflow, so I am curious as how to people do their workflows with standard scope mode. Do most standard scope users just stick with scope plugins? What is the best way to get everything running happily and integrating it with modern production? I use UAD-1 and Powercore as well, with lots of native stuff but I want the power of scope behind it all. Any tips or advice (or links to other threads) would be appreciated. You guys know your game and I am hoping you can help make me a convert to standard mode lol

OR

Do you think I should be a little more patient and see what sonic-core has in store for the new xtc mode? Do you think it will be just be bug fixes? Or a totally new rewrite with full functionality? I wish they would inform us! Hard to decide, but it sucks being in this loop with this expensive card and the a16u. Its really my only set back with my studio.

I appreciate any advice everyone has, thanks!

with scope pro you shouldn't need xtc. all your native synth will go to sfp mixer. but if you use uad/powercore and want them in end of your plug-in chain than you need xtc. anyway scope sys sounds much different from duende/powercore ... it has a sweet taste i love that.

so do most cats around here that have all 3 dsp systems use xtc only? I have always wondered....

I have never used XTC in almost 10 years of Scope (can't even recall how long XTC has actually been around ).
I see the value for some configurations, but I just never really felt I wanted to use it.

Greg

I use standard scope mode for tracking (easier and better routing for monitoring, etc), and XTC for mixing (easier to have everything in the same place + better integration with the control surfaces)
Different needs, different tools

exactly how i do it!
Scope for tracking...way cool with zero latency monitoring with fx.. and then XTC mode for mixing. for me its alot of hassle configuaritng ins/outs, mixing on two mixers etc etc in sfp mode when mixing... i prefer xtc.. but each to his own!

bLiNd wrote: I can get the busses to the scope mixers and all, but what is the best workflow for recording to audio? If I route back to cubase there is latency with channels that have scope modules. So I cant have a chain of vsts and then a scope plugin and then back again without more issues.

Latency? Really? Are you sure you've tried this mode as i have no latency, use VST instruments (BFD, Oddity, impOSCar, M-Tron, Ivory etc.) and the Scope synths and effects (natch). i always thought it was things like XTC and UAD that introduce latency (because of the host).What you've described is exactly how i work: buss to Scope mixer - add synths and effects, record back into Cubase.

Scope is real-time DSP - it's hardware. Any latency is something else in your system (assuming you've changed the ULLI setting).

You can monitor with zero latency in XTC mode too!
Better you can use a scope synth as VSTi in xtc (so with asio latency) but if you wanna play it with zero latency (whatever is the ASIO buffer!) you can route the synth to the scope mixer , mute the vsti on your sequencer,play with zero latency,record midi on your sequencer and after that disconnect the synth from the scope mixer,disable muting on ther sequencer and the synth plays the midi you have recorded.
So you can add (for example) a bass line even on a project with a lot of VST's and latency (tipical when your are mixing a song that seem finishe but you need to fix or add something) without the need of lowering asio buffer and so without killing your cpu!
That hybrid mode is one of the less know "pearls" of Scope and Creamware (and SC too) seems really don't understand the great features of that system.
All that you need is adding an STM mixer on your XTC project and when you load an XTC VSTi into your sequencer if you click with the mouse on the IN pads of the STM mixer you can connect the VSTi right into SCOPE bypassig the ASIO driver!There's also a post here on Z...if i find it i'll add here.Of course if you also connect your SPDIF,ADAT or analog inputs to the mixer you can also have ZERO LATENCY MONITORING to all that you connect to these inputs.

Post found...take a look :

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=21316

Sort of understand what you are saying kwild, sounds cool, although not really an issue for me as ASIO (ULLI) is set to 3-4ms.

i think bLiNd should at least give the Scope window a go. For me though being a bit of a techy (i work with patchbays all the time in my job) i prefer just thinking, let me stick a distortion after tha synth, dragging a few into the window, connecting multiple outputs to the inputs and connecting them all to the mixer, trying each in turn. i also like the cabling approach than pull-down menus that you see on sequencers.

Mr Arkadin wrote:Sort of understand what you are saying kwild, sounds cool, although not really an issue for me as ASIO (ULLI) is set to 3-4ms.

i think bLiNd should at least give the Scope window a go. For me though being a bit of a techy (i work with patchbays all the time in my job) i prefer just thinking, let me stick a distortion after tha synth, dragging a few into the window, connecting multiple outputs to the inputs and connecting them all to the mixer, trying each in turn. i also like the cabling approach than pull-down menus that you see on sequencers.

Oh yes you can put the ULLY to 3 ms but if u have a lot of vst's into inserts and a mastering chain on the master bus of 4 or 5 vst plugs even if you set the ULLY for the lowest latency possible you must add the plugins latency so the 3ms on the ASIO will be a lot more in reality and you can not play well with a synth...too much latency!!
With that hybrid XTC mode you can fix the problem...you can have for example a minimax at zero latency even in a project set with the biggest ULLY settings and full of VST's in the inserts...the benefits of that hybrid mode are obvious.But anybody know what's better for their own workflow so i can understand you,mate.
I've used SCOPE in native mode for years (since 2001!) only from 1 year i've decided to go XTC mainly for better integration.To be honest i've ignored XTC for years coz at the time i've think was better having the routing and coz Sonar don't work well with XTC...but now some major problems are fixed and also im mainly working with Cubase 5.

kwild wrote: Oh yes you can put the ULLY to 3 ms but if u have a lot of vst's into inserts and a mastering chain on the master bus of 4 or 5 vst plugs even if you set the ULLY for the lowest latency possible you must add the plugins latency so the 3ms on the ASIO will be a lot more in reality and you can not play well with a synth...too much latency!!

Ah, well there's the rub - i never use VSTi as inserts - i only use a few GForce synths and BFD - everything else mix-wise, effects-wise and synth-wise i do in Scope, so i've never experience this latency you speak of (We don't need no steenkin' latency!).

vsts=processing on the cpu=latency.

garyb wrote:vsts=processing on the cpu=latency.

Well,Gary i suppose that every guy that have used a DAW in his life know that.

There's always tracking through one mixer, through your host, and then mixing out through another mixer, which is great, because you can test your mix at the push of a button as you go.

Luckily I'm able to get very low ASIO latency (since I really only use Samplitude's Ammunition plug, and Superior2), and can mix through the host and then build up a master track while tracking, which is one way I save time when working on certain types of projects.

Greg

pollux wrote:I use standard scope mode for tracking (easier and better routing for monitoring, etc), and XTC for mixing (easier to have everything in the same place + better integration with the control surfaces)
Different needs, different tools

Hmm this sounds the most interesting of the replies...

So are you saying as you record and create the track (before the final mix) you monitor with scope and do all the standard production, and when you are ready to do your mixdown you load up audio tracks into xtc mode?

I usually record/create/mixdown on the fly as I go...and its hard to change my weird workflow because its not studio norm I guess...

Really my main beef here is the scope synths not being able to run in xtc mode on a quad core without freezing. There is a work around for this (not really a work around when you have to disable 3 cores of your processor) but it does the "trick" I guess you could say. Honestly these synths are outdated for the work I do now even tho the osc and filters are still unmatched....until I got fxpansion dcam. Those synths are incredible..who needs emulations anymore?!

I have worked out kinks from creamware for a while and have been fine with it. I am thinking I should just wait for the official release of scope 5. I have tried the candidate release and it seems great but I still get dsp overflow errors for some reason (not with 4.5 tho) Anyway thanks everyone for your input, you guys and this community totally rock!

bLiNd wrote:

pollux wrote:I use standard scope mode for tracking (easier and better routing for monitoring, etc), and XTC for mixing (easier to have everything in the same place + better integration with the control surfaces)
Different needs, different tools

Hmm this sounds the most interesting of the replies...

So are you saying as you record and create the track (before the final mix) you monitor with scope and do all the standard production, and when you are ready to do your mixdown you load up audio tracks into xtc mode?

I do the tracking using the DAW as a tape recorder I add all the FX I need to monitor correctly, create as many headphone / monitor mixes I need, and so, all in SCOPE, and then record dry in Reaper (used to record in VDAT but it doesn't work with the XITE ) I have one small setup dedicated to this; If I have to record synths, I try to capture both, audio and midi (when possible since not all synths allow to send both at the same time).
I then take the dry wav files and import them into Sonar in my "mixing" setup, where I use the Scope plugins in XTC mode.

bLiNd wrote:I usually record/create/mixdown on the fly as I go...and its hard to change my weird workflow because its not studio norm I guess...

whatever works best for you should be your "norm". This sounds logic when you are composing : creating.; The "studio norm" is an artist or band arrives with a set of songs already created, and the producer already has an idea of what it should look like.. so it's easier to use a "record then mix then master" workflow.
Your workflow is also very common among Tracktion users, because there's nothing that looks like a studio mixer inside it. By far the best DAW User Interface I've seen. Too bad Mackie didn't continue developing it (although they never stated it's dead )

bLiNd wrote:Really my main beef here is the scope synths not being able to run in xtc mode on a quad core without freezing. There is a work around for this (not really a work around when you have to disable 3 cores of your processor) but it does the "trick" I guess you could say. Honestly these synths are outdated for the work I do now even tho the osc and filters are still unmatched....until I got fxpansion dcam. Those synths are incredible..who needs emulations anymore?!

I'm not a heavy synth user, but I never had these freezes using a quad core.

bLiNd wrote:I have worked out kinks from creamware for a while and have been fine with it. I am thinking I should just wait for the official release of scope 5. I have tried the candidate release and it seems great but I still get dsp overflow errors for some reason (not with 4.5 tho) Anyway thanks everyone for your input, you guys and this community totally rock!

There might be a reason why XTC mode is not yet released, and IMHO this reason is not a DLL / XTCProject.pro packaging issue I think we can expect quite some improvements in this field

I have the same problem .. dualcore, and i have to disable one core otherwise XTC crashes on (all communication with the board has been lost..error)
- i have an asus motherboard with mad processor. I think people with intel stuff dont have this problem. Is that correct??

the19thbear wrote:I have the same problem .. dualcore, and i have to disable one core otherwise XTC crashes on (all communication with the board has been lost..error)
- i have an asus motherboard with mad processor. I think people with intel stuff dont have this problem. Is that correct??

I've an intel QX6800 and a DFI X38 mobo

TurboMode from Intel on the newer LGA 1156 sounds pretty cool. It goes from 4 threads down to 3, 2 and 1 core according to the app. This means when it hits single threaded mode, it could be running at 3.6GHz, which would be over 4.0GHz in P4 speak.
For example, Gigastudio 3.0 is a single threaded app and runs really well like that. So the new CPU's would become a super fast single threaded CPU and bury the old E series CPU's by some 600MHz.....
It's a great sounding solution for guys with older apps. I wonder is Cubase SX would or Reaper would benefit from this..
I thought I had the Baddest Gigastudio rig until I met my DAWbro here in Vegas, He had a Pentium M780 OC'd that was a single threaded CPU. He was using XTC w/ Nuendo and the ancient GSIF 1.0 drivers, and smoked my P4 3.4EE.
So old methods are quite sound IMHO. Apps that have been shelved or are considered obsolete are going to run like never before w/ LGA1156 in Turbo Mode.
Gigastudio 3.0 was the app that started the Pedal Down IR's and built in reverb for apps.
Instead of 4-6 instances, I am sure it will handle way more.
XTC w/ old Nuendo 3.1 and GSIF 1.0 are going to be a smash when these CPU's are become available.