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For me, it's been live playing, and I've been working on it for the past year since I moved to NY. I'm practicing through the jazz idiom, with a fairly rigorous set of bi-weekly homework I get from my used to be Berklee teacher. It's a bunch of mechanical exercises, written assignments, and a couple of standards.. just the typical beginner stuff I guess. And contrary to "forget about all that crap" opinions that I personally had, this stuff actually helped a my writing quite a lot, although I can't write as much because I'm practicing more.

I used to think I was a pretty good musician, but this humbling process has me back on the ground. Music is hard... very hard. There were so many things I'd never even thought of exploiting. And that sort of music is becoming less and less prominent. I'm not talking specifically about jazz, but any type of music that is highly intellectual, and also physically (technical execution) demanding at the same time. I'm really glad to have found this vast landscape that I had been ignoring for all this time. Now I've switched more towards working on this part of the musical space, just for myself. Because I want to be able to make very good sounds, with as little mental clouds as possible. And this mentality is making music a very personal thing, as opposed to something that a client controls, or just another byproduct of someone else's project.

I guess the downside is that it's made me very humble about my music, which is very bad marketing-wise.. but I guess since I'm doing this for myself, I don't really care about marketability anymore. Or I guess at least 'till I feel that my music has matured a bit, I'm not really interested in marketing, or pushing my music elsewhere. It's back in the crib right now, and that's where it should stay 'till it's grown up a bit.

I'm wondering if others have had inspirational experiences like this, where something shook your musical world view, and threw you into a new vector. I think reading about other people's inspirational experiences can inspire other too.

Of course, you're free to disagree, or add to any of these ideas. These are just starting points I vaguely see feel at the moment. I think through debating and thinking together as a community, we can all learn a bit from each other.

get out of here Ken, I'm doing the same thing here since the beginning of the month! well maybe not the same thing but I'm going through a bunch of theory that I never took the time to learn.. like how to construct jazz chords?

All I took was three years of classical guitar back in my teenage days, but now I feel if I can go though more theory and practice, then the music I try to do will get better. I've been reading the electronic book this guy has done: http://jazzguitar.be it's only 30 pages but I can now finally begin to read jazz sheets The other book I'm reading is this one by Mark Levine: http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Theory-Book- ... 1883217040

anyways, good question you are asking

hand strength.

hm, try calling 911 when getting a tennis elbow by trying the masturbate death match.

kensuguro wrote: I'm wondering if others have had inspirational experiences like this, where something shook your musical world view, and threw you into a new vector. I think reading about other people's inspirational experiences can inspire other too.

Hmmm.., let me count

I was a teenager learning guitar and playing teenage pop stuff.. then I discovered kraftwerk and swapped to techno.. I didn't have a keyboard nor a drumbox, so I used to do it using voyetra, mod trackers and stuff like that... then came the guns n' roses and got me to buy a cheap electric guitar and the biggest amp I could afford (like a 5w one with a 4" speaker) and played hard rock for a while (as a remain, I kept a particular attirance towards the Les Paul) Then came Tool and Nine Inch Nails and I found that I could mix techno and hard rock (by that time I had a Sound Blaster AWE 64 and a ZOOM 505)... After that period I became angry and started playing thrash (my amp was bigger by then, something like 40w )... Then some things happened in my life, like moving from a country to another one, getting married, having kids.. and I stopped making music for over 5 years... I started again an year and a half ago, little by little got some decent gear, and played a more retro-styled rock, influenced by Hendrix, The Who, Cream... Top notch was when I got an old Big Muff I then started working in london, which meant travelling on mondays and coming back to paris on fridays, was forced to put the music again on standby (well, almost, since I used the spare time for writing), and ended up deeply interested on symphonic metal (Nightwish, Epica, Kamelot...), phase in which I'm still... The SCOPE synths and the dynatube MB are like a blessing...

In parallel I'm digging as deep as I can in sound engineering.. bought several books and study them when I have some time (yes, *even* the maths.. I thought I'd never say that)

This said, like 10 years ago i saw an ad for the Pulsar I cards on a magazine, and I fell in love instantly.. I told myself "I'll have one of these some day" (my student budget was very tight at the time).. I had to wait some years but it was well worth!

Now, to finish my psychoanalysis session, i can give two constants:

1) I change styles all the time Call it "inspirational experiences", "ants in the pants", "fear to commitment" or any other alikes
2) I'll never leave the SCOPE platform (unless Holger, Ralf and the others bring us something even better if that could possibly be done.. XITE is SCOPE platform too )


Phew... Thank you doc, see you next week!


Cheers!

Raul

kensuguro wrote:...And that sort of music is becoming less and less prominent. I'm not talking specifically about jazz, but any type of music that is highly intellectual, and also physically (technical execution) demanding at the same time. I'm really glad to have found this vast landscape that I had been ignoring for all this time. Now I've switched more towards working on this part of the musical space, just for myself. ...

probably been there too, long ago - way too much focussed on 'sophistication' and technically demanding stuff. Nothing less qualifying would hit my record player...
eventually it made me stop playing, as I was lightyears behind my self-proclaimed standards which I would never be able to achieve
what a fool I was
as the answer was so close... Lou Reeds 'Walk on the Wild Side', has always been one of my favourites - now how sophisticated is that track ?

but it's ingenious - recently watched the 'making of' on DVD - studio talk with the same dudes 25 years or more later in retrospective. LMAO
the bassist with his idea to double the upright with an electric negotiating for an additional track on the tape, Lou getting a crises about the girls quire's doop-do-doop, the drummer playing a march with jazz brushes ...
possibly not everyone's taste, but it's become a classic - so much with so few

but eventually the message came through - music is about emotion first of all
it either can transmit - or it doesn't

I apply that even to classic - my favourite violinist is Hilary Hahn. When she performs she lives that stuff, completely. There's more in the atmosphere than just 'tone'.
German violinist Anne-Sophie Mutter is almost identically skilled, but (for me) she comes over (almost) as an extremely well trained 'robot'. She's an incredible player with a phantastic instrument and may have a great passion for her art - but it just doesn't transmit.

I don't care any more if it's difficult to perform or created after a complex pattern
And I started to play bass again, which I had done as a schoolboy... but given up for the reasons above.
Maybe my ears are more trained now, but I really love those physical instruments where you feel the wood and the strings - all those fine details in the tone

I've also learned to accept my humbleness and make the best out of my poor 'resources', trying to find my own way and style on the instrument.
Sometimes funny things happen... I always considered a pick a nogo on bass, unless you play metal... but recently found out that my bass sounds really great with a specific carbon plektrum

I don't do much theory though (but I have some background knowledge) - I prefer to try out tone combinations myself, no matter if they are considered harmonic or not.
For all the other things there is Band-in-a-Box.

If I need a specific Jazz progression, it will suggest one, if that doesn't please me, it will do another one, and another one...
Ok, I'm a professional developer, not a composer
but to be honest BiaB is a tool, it can do the bread-and-butter stuff, probably it can do it even pretty well... so why bother ?

I'd rather focus on the 'unusual' parts - I mean if composing is a part of making your living, then that's a rather efficient approach - it allows you to spend more time with the 'fun part'

cheers, Tom

Kensuguro,

Berklee was founded by Lawrence Lee Berk. The name sounds exactly like the prestigious University of California Berkeley which was an intentional move to confuse potential students and their parents.

The whole purpose of Berklee is to turn out boring piano lounge/wedding musicians because that is the only way they feel a jazz musician can earn a living. There is a great emphasis on "fake books" which are poorly transcribed jazz classics. At the time I attended Berklee every student was required to buy one and all of them were full of totally illegal copyright infringements.There is no emphasis on originality at Berklee. I got a "c" on my first arrangement because the teacher said you can not have a blues in a major key. The style of comping with the left hand on the piano sounds simply horrible to me. It's a relic of a bygone era when the only music available was that which a family member would play on a piano at home. Most people I knew didn't finish Berklee because it was such a joke. I will never forget the smelly fish and the ice cream which would never melt.

Lately I have been learning about jazz from wikipedia and google videos. The great players studied classical music. When they got into jazz, they didn't copy other musicians like Berklee teaches you to do.

If you want to play jazz, learn pentatonic and chromatic scales so well that it takes no effort, then go on the road, drink and drug yourself nearly to death and visit some prostitutes.

Jazz was good until white people ruined it.

Astro, I agree with you wholehearted in the first part of your writing. You are SOOO right about feelings and emotions, that’s what music is all about!

You have found a well balanced performance versus creativity, and that’s great for you.

But now, if you talk to someone like Ken, that wants to be a professional musician, he must go through the development of his skills, to the most.

Having “fun” with some software or ready made patterns etc. is so cool, of course, but composing is not having “fun” merely, it is MUCH MORE than that… It can be fun… but it can be a mystical, extraordinarily deep, soul level experience as well. And I guess this is what any serious musician looks for, when composing. No software or any “external” thing will fulfil that. Why? Because a real composer brings something from his inner world to the outer world, and not vice versa; if you compose through external means, you are rather “arranging” ideas or amusing yourself with it. (I’m not saying this is wrong, or anything like that anyway, but it is not composing as I understand it) The word “composing” could be translated like “creating from scratch”

If you want to make the difference, contribute musically and be full of your own being through music creation and interpretation, you must go deep and will need to get acquainted about music, in as many areas as you can afford to be, through your entire life.

After all, as you say, what is important is what you feel, EMOTIONS, not what others feel about your music... If you fall into the trap of trying to please “others” before you please “yourself” musically, you are deceiving yourself, and you will not find yourself in music, because your music will not be pure will not reflect who you are, but will rather be deformed by your egotism, it will come out of your strain for being “important” or “someone on top” rather than your spirit. In other words, it will come from your repressed psychological world that others have imposed onto you, instated of your heart.

kensuguro wrote:For me, it's been live playing, and I've been working on it for the past year since I moved to NY. I'm practicing through the jazz idiom, with a fairly rigorous set of bi-weekly homework I get from my used to be Berklee teacher. It's a bunch of mechanical exercises, written assignments, and a couple of standards.. just the typical beginner stuff I guess. And contrary to "forget about all that crap" opinions that I personally had, this stuff actually helped a my writing quite a lot, although I can't write as much because I'm practicing more.

I used to think I was a pretty good musician, but this humbling process has me back on the ground. Music is hard... very hard. There were so many things I'd never even thought of exploiting. And that sort of music is becoming less and less prominent. I'm not talking specifically about jazz, but any type of music that is highly intellectual, and also physically (technical execution) demanding at the same time. I'm really glad to have found this vast landscape that I had been ignoring for all this time. Now I've switched more towards working on this part of the musical space, just for myself. Because I want to be able to make very good sounds, with as little mental clouds as possible. And this mentality is making music a very personal thing, as opposed to something that a client controls, or just another byproduct of someone else's project.

I guess the downside is that it's made me very humble about my music, which is very bad marketing-wise.. but I guess since I'm doing this for myself, I don't really care about marketability anymore. Or I guess at least 'till I feel that my music has matured a bit, I'm not really interested in marketing, or pushing my music elsewhere. It's back in the crib right now, and that's where it should stay 'till it's grown up a bit.

I'm wondering if others have had inspirational experiences like this, where something shook your musical world view, and threw you into a new vector. I think reading about other people's inspirational experiences can inspire other too.

Of course, you're free to disagree, or add to any of these ideas. These are just starting points I vaguely see feel at the moment. I think through debating and thinking together as a community, we can all learn a bit from each other.

Hello Ken!

You made my day! I’m very happy and writing with a smile in my face!

I encourage you to keep going with your studies the old hard way. You’re going to ripe the rewards in just about two years, maximum, with consistent, strong improvements in your understanding of music, performance capacity as a pianist, and awareness of people playing around you, which is also extremely important: to learn to listen to the others while you play!

You’ll never be able to create such an abundance of musical fruition in only two years otherwise.

I would add to all your efforts, the following one:

Listen to music as much as you can, with a dedicated, total attention to what you are listening to. Don’t do it while washing your dishes or cleaning the house, I mean, real attention as when you sit down or lie down exclusively for it. And then of course, when you’re doing anything take advantage of this time opportunities as well. But you need to spend some time with this exclusive purpose.

Listen to any album the general way as usual, as a whole, then instrument by instrument, and then the whole thing again. Do it several times and you’re going to develop a musical awareness which is amazing. BTW: when you listen to the whole thing the last time, after the analysis, don’t distract yourself trying to think or reflect, instated, use this final moment to only enjoy, to feel.

I guarantee you a MAYOR development of your compositional juice, as well as an incredible intense development of your ear. Please, trust me!

Keep going my friend…

keep it up Ken. there's always more to learn.

braincell: you're pinpointed why my teacher left.

The reaction to jazz and traditional technical training is understandable. Obviously the focus is not on speed or power. These may be required during training, but the final outcome is hardly measured by these things. The simplest, subtle passages are executed with emotion and expression, but underneath that is the control and precision that is mastered through practice. It's and old art I know, but I see no problem with it. Actually there is a lot to learn from it.

I think that nothing can come from no thought. At least nothing that will last. Sophistication in the product is one thing, but the product can also be simple, as a by product of a sophisticated approach. The approach doesn't even have to be mechanically sophisticated. It may be simple, but yet based on a sophisticated understanding of a phenomenon. (like your feeling towards death) But the commonality is that there is creative thinking, and lot of it. The question is why you write something, or express something a certain way. I don't think it's just logic either. It's emotionally understanding your piece, understanding what the piece means to you, and what you want to achieve as a person.

Of course, not all pieces have this sort of magnitude associated with it. They come only once in a blue moon, but when it comes, I want to be ready to handle it the best I can.

Nestor, as usual, I have no idea why you understand where I am at, and yet you're so far away. It is strange, but from how you describe it, you list many of the things I have been feeling for a while now. I've only recently started to feel that I can tap into a deeper part of myself, and release that in a form that I like. Jazz has nothing to do with this, but like in the past few pieces, I am enjoying the distancing from formulated styles. (thought they're good in their own context)

Anyway, it is very interesting to read everyone's viewpoints. There is always a lot to learn from diversity. Not just to defend my own viewpoints, but also to accept new ways of attacking the same issue that we are all facing individually.

I simply empathise with you… And that makes me happy…

Nestor wrote:...Having “fun” with some software or ready made patterns etc. is so cool, of course, but composing is not having “fun” merely, it is MUCH MORE than that… It can be fun… but it can be a mystical, extraordinarily deep, soul level experience as well. And I guess this is what any serious musician looks for, when composing. ...

thank you for your understanding, Nestor, but you may have missed the point in 'fun'... it wasn't meant as 'entertainment', but as a synonym for inspirational, motivating, enjoyable
and there was a pre-condition reading 'making a living as a composer'

in that context we all (may) have to compromise - some more, some less, a few lucky ones never

admittedly I liked the provocative aspect of the suggestion - though on the other hand a lot of reknown artists had (or have) assistents...
you may work on a filmscore (as that's what they pay you for) and you have a really cool musical idea, something triggered a strange sequence of notes and now that's circling around your virtual 'inner ear' - perfectly matching the mood of a scene. But for whatever reason the score demands a blues scheme...

now you can wait for an original blues, matching the melody - or you boot up your assistant application and speed up thing a bit, hopefully...
of course there's few need for the latter if you have all the time in the world, but that's probably the least likely situation in commercial work

cheers, Tom

Unless you are a genius, you have to balance fun with discipline. The fun part is in the improvisation, which is the secret to great jazz music because it can come from the subconscious mind; at least that is the goal. Even the greatest artists tend to rehash things they have played before to some extent.

I understand you better Astro, thanks for your explanation

Now you know what? When I get a clear idea, the least I want is something to interfere with what I’m doing. I would consider any “noise” coming from whichever place, an annoyance just there. But this is me.

braincell, that's actually an interesting point. About this genius, prodigy thing. I just saw a kid come in at my teacher's place.. I guess he's what you'd call a child prodigy. Just a whiz on the piano, playing the blues. His technical execution was very good, great feel, great time. And to the untrained ear, his content was good too. He's got the licks down, the bluesy phrases, etc. Problem was, to the trained ear, his content was very simple and repetitive. So, it's interesting to divide genius in to technical/execution, versus the cognitive/thinking portion required to be a good composer or an improviser. It's tough to have to do both..

Ken - about the kid... he hasn't 'lived' life yet so he really has nothing to say yet. Hopefully for his sake he'll eventually start to see thru the BS things like impressing people with tech chops and get into channelling expression into his playing.

Personally I'm on a continuing journey to learn about harmony... I'm not proficient enough on a melodic instrument for that stuff to come naturally or for the theory to make sense, so I'm just trying to do it in my own ham-fisted way. Mostly I'm doing this by trying to learn tunes and progressions. I've also been messing around with an Eventide harmonizer which throws some interesting ideas up. Most of all I'm trying to think about what I'm doing more instead of just jamming for the sake of it (I'm trying to move more towards hardware to 'enforce' this) so that only meaningful work gets committed.

I was thinking of Bach and Beethoven who could improvise masterpieces. I am sure they put a lot of hard work into their manuscripts though.

braincell wrote:...and Beethoven who could improvise masterpieces. I am sure they put a lot of hard work into their manuscripts though.

definitely, especially when he was actually deaf

kensuguru wrote:They come only once in a blue moon, but when it comes, I want to be ready to handle it the best I can.

This is the primary reason driving me when I study and practice; in the notes field as well as in the sound editing and development.
However, my 'self-study' approach is still excessively based on trials and errors; my practice method is often far from being wise from various points of view (I'm confused about this...for sure I tend to be excessively mechanical in the notes field, maybe the opposite with sounds; I probably don't manage the quantities of time devoted to the various exercises in the best way..)
This usually leads me to poor results and to a consequent lack of steadiness.

About the two creative methods I ever used:
One has common points with what described by John Cooper. I'll synthesize it here saying ideas coming out during relax period. Well, these kind of ideas often go beyond my capability, that's to say, they are dissolved by the difficulties during the carrying out phase.
And of course this is the reason why I anyway try to improve myself too.
The other way has common points with something discussed by Tom Astroman in this thread. Ideas born on the instrument.
Taking for granted a certain expressive ability, the rest is matter of feelings, fantasy, enthusiasm, wit managing one's own resources being them psycho/physical and equipment related.

The point of the listening, highlighted by Nestor, is important too. Even taking out midi bases from existing songs could be a good exercise.