I'm sold! More questions...

[tlaskows]

Scope sounded great even 10 years ago when I just had one Pro card. If he's willing to wait another 10-15 years, there should be something out there that sounds just as good. But this is very unlikely to happen. But I don't like to wait 15 years for something I already had 10 years ago, nuh uh. The only thing I miss is my Jup-6. Still waiting for a good simulation. Roland will have one eventually, I have a feeling about this. The filter in Jup-8 just sounds too gentle. I don't understand, because they both use the same filter chip, but configured a bit differently.

-Tom

[garyb]

the XITE sounds better than the PCI cards...

[tlaskows]

Oh, and I just wonder what kind of DSPs Roland uses for their new toys... I mean come on, 4 voice poly? You can't even play a proper chord with that. I like to play an octave on the lower register and a chord on the top. According to my calculations, it takes about 6 old 66MHz Sharcs to have 6 voices in the Minimax. That's a really really old chip! The newer 333MHz Sharc in the plugiator can do up to 12 voices! In a unit that sells for 400$ USD new and looks like a toy, they should be able to put in a 20$ DSP there... sorry, off topic again. You can call me "Tom that gets sidetracked easily".

-Tom

[tlaskows]

the XITE sounds better than the PCI cards...

I bet it does, but does it sound 3.5 times the price better? Yes, I have some very little hum on the balanced outputs from the PCI card. I'm not sure why. Should I try to hookup my monitors to the A16 U? I am not using any of the 16 outputs or so on it

-Tom

[katano]

the XITE sounds better than the PCI cards...

Gary, does it sound better because of the sharcs or because of the AD/DA? Just wondering. Software has to be the same, hasn't it (apart from the drivers...)

[tlaskows]

No, I'm pretty sure it's not the new chips. It has more expensive converters and it's an external box, so no interference from the PC

That's why I'm thinking of using my A16 Ultra for my monitor output, because it's external. And right now I have a little bit of hum (honestly, I can't even hear it). But I need those fancy expensive cables (TRS to XLR)

-Tom

[garyb]

the XITE sounds better than the PCI cards...

Gary, does it sound better because of the sharcs or because of the AD/DA? Just wondering. Software has to be the same, hasn't it (apart from the drivers...)

yeah, Tom pretty much nailed it. the inside of the computer is a perilous place for audio. the XITE is noticeably cleaner sounding and it has better AD/DA. also, since the newer chips are more powerful, BIG devices are less likely to span multiple dsps, improving phase relationships inside a device. yes, the software is basically the same.

[zerocrossing]

He changes his mind like a girl changes clothes

Sorry I just woke up and it's not even 4am, hmm...

-Tom

No worries. As socially liberal as I am, I have no love for politically correct nonsense and a good joke is a good joke. I had a good friend who got fired from his teaching gig at Cornell university for referencing a study done on rest room use between men and woman. It wasn't an opinion, he was just pointing to hard facts done in a scientific study. Yeah. We live in that world.

I fully admit that this was a hard decision for me and I flip flopped a lot. I'm on a limited budget. My wife super generously let me step out of the game industry for a while to write and illustrate a book, so there's currently only one paycheck coming in and I live in the San Francisco bay area. I could only use money created by getting rid of older gear. In the end I really knew that between the XITE-1 and the Modulus .002 there was no bad choice. Both have strong pros and more than their share of cons.

You kids have been great, but there has also been some misinformation, like the "wavetable synths don't work on a 64 bit system." Where does that kind of thing even come from? The biggest problem comes from Sonic Core itself because rather than put out really good marketing materials and instructional demo videos, they let people on the forums do the heavy lifting. There's a real shortage of any sort of demo tracks... Solaris costs $326.70 USD and there are three short demo tracks. Tone2's Electra 2 is $189, requires no special hardware to run and has 10 very nice long tracks on their site. Plus, I can download and put Electra 2 though it's paces at my own leisure. I can't demo any Scope synth until I have the hardware to run it. So yeah, I did change my mind a lot. It's a lot of money to spend on something that is going to be tethered to a computer that by it's very nature will be obsolete soon.

[tlaskows]

Kids?

I could probably be your father

-Tom

[Bud Weiser]

I'm on a limited budget.

...
but there has also been some misinformation, like the "wavetable synths don't work on a 64 bit system."

...

I can't demo any Scope synth until I have the hardware to run it.

...

It's a lot of money to spend on something that is going to be tethered to a computer that by it's very nature will be obsolete soon.

Your financial situation cannot be an issue for any manufacturer out there.
When you can afford XITE-1D or XITE-1, make a decision.
If you can´t, forget it.

Dunno where 64Bit system misinformation comes from,- I don´t care because for a SCOPE system, me and you don´t need 64Bit systems at all.
There are no devices in SCOPE 5.1 making benefit from 64Bit systems.

The issue being introduced here is,- users WANT 64Bit systems because that´s today´s computer standard now.

Nothing in the audio world really needs 64Bit systems, except you run RAM intensive native sample player applications in realtime.
How many times we mentioned here, it´s best to have a separate machine for SCOPE alone ?
And how cheap is it ?
My friend and tech, keyboardist and sounddesigner/mixing engineer himself, he just ordered a HP 6000 workstation from ebay for EUR 45,- because his old SCOPE machine died,- and he did after reading some posts here PlanetZ.
Ask Gary and jhulk,- they will confirm I think.

You´re free requesting demo-keys from SC support.
Otherwise you have to live w/ their copy protection scheme which in deed is bound to the hardware.

Once you have SCOPE/ XITE, you´d better investigate in everything delivered than thinking about demo-keys for 3rd party devices.
The stock stuff is still good and keeps you busy for month.

Bud

[tlaskows]

Very good point Bud Weiser. Like you said, if you don't have the ke$h, don't buy. I can only afford good old PCI cards for now and probably till they die... Cost me some $2000 for 3 cards with a lot of extra plugs...

-Tom

[Bud Weiser]

Very good point Bud Weiser. Like you said, if you don't have the ke$h, don't buy. I can only afford good old PCI cards for now and probably till they die... Cost me some $2000 for 3 cards with a lot of extra plugs...

-Tom

Well, it´s relative ...

Since we know XITE-1, DSP wise, can do much more than 3 old CW PCI cards can do, the price difference is understandable IMO.
Don´t forget XITE machine´s analog I/Os also sound better than PCI card´s analog I/Os and there´s much more data throughput w/ a PCIe card vs PCI card.

But,- when someone already owns up to 3 PCI cards (I only own one) it´s also understandable he wants to work w/ this system as long as possible.
I´d do the same in that case.

For me, it was much easier entering the SC XITE world.
Owning only 1 15-DSP PCI card and recognizing the limitations, I pulled the trigger for XITE-1 instead of buying more used cards.

Sooner or later, XITE will be the hardware platform for most SCOPE users out there, last but not least because support of old CW cards and never updated devices might end one day, possibly when SCOPE 6 arrives,- and it will arrive.
There is a mastermind of SCOPE and it might be his life´s work,- so I expect it will come.

anyway ...

I use both, the card and XITE,- and because digital audio out is binary, XITE is also the best converter I got for my PCI card,- thus no suffer from analog I/O quality difference.
I have more audio cards here, RME Hammerfall, 8 I/O converter and Steinberg (ESI) VSL2020 ...
But XITE-1 is the best for me.
I like it´s sound very much and together w/ my Tannoy gold 8" coax speakers and Bryston 3B amp combo.
XITE-1 is a solid piece of hardware gear for studio work and even someone won´t prefer every single software device bundled.
Use what you find useful, enjoy the routing possibilities and enjoy a no compromize piece of hardware pleasing the ears.

But as always, all related to music (production) is matter of taste ...



Bud

[zerocrossing]

Kids?

I could probably be your father

-Tom

Well... you'd have to be about 63 at the youngest. If this is the case, why did you leave me with that family in New Jersey?! God that town was a dump.

[zerocrossing]

I'm on a limited budget.

Your financial situation cannot be an issue for any manufacturer out there.
When you can afford XITE-1D or XITE-1, make a decision.
If you can´t, forget it.

Well, when I said that I'm on a limited budget, I meant that the budget limit was self imposed. I'm a hobbiest. While I love high quality gear, I know that in reality I could make great sounding music with the software I have and my guitar. I know this because I have. I don't "need" anything more than what I already have. For me it will be a nice treat and a way to consolidate my work space in an ergonomic way.

But... manufacturers should have issue with my financial situation... in the sense that they should do as good a job as possible communicating the value of their product to everyone. They don't really do this. Going to their site and just having a look at their info made me think, "that's an awful lot of cash for that." I don't have the same thoughts when I look at something like the Solaris or Modulus .002. They do a better job of communicating their value.

I could have bought an XITE-1D with the cash in hand I had from selling my Prophet 12 and KingKORG. My budget was not so "limited" that I couldn't find the money for those synths (plus others mentioned in the "what analogs do I keep" thread. So it's not like I'm begging outside the grocery store. I can scare up the money for the XITE-1 (I have) but it's more about me worrying about the idea that the XITE-1 is worth that money to me.

What you all don't understand is that you already have been indoctrinated in the Sonic Core fan club so it's easy for you. Not having one in front of you and going by what a bunch of strangers have to say about it isn't that easy. Do I have go go into debt, or cut out family vacations to get one? Not at all. I was just commenting on the bad job that Sonic Core marketing does showing off it's platform. I honestly think if they made sure there was a demo model in every Guitar Center and trained up the sales people to show it off, we'd see a lot of people on Gearslutz and KVR talking about it all the time.

Also, they've obviously created a 64 bit version of Scope. The fact that they have not updated their sampler software to work on it... well it's a bit troubling. I do use a very RAM intensive software plug in called Mobiüs. It's a real time audio looper. Anyway, it's free and they've released a 64 bit version... Ableton Live is RAM intensive... it has a 64 bit version. Almost all the major music software I can think of has, or have announced, a 64 bit version. The fact that Scope hasn't... and has known about this issue for a long time... that lowers the value of an XITE-1 in my mind. It shows me that it is not actively being developed... at least not in a vigorous way. Are there work arounds? Yeah, sure. But when dropping more than $3K on a piece of digital gear it does give one pause when you start hearing about a lot of "issues" and their "work-a-rounds."

[garyb]

well, it's easy to say what you say, but in reality, things aren't that easy.

also, yes, it's damned impossible to really communicate WHAT Scope is, let alone how many synths you can use. Scope is much more than synths, it just happens to be the some of the BEST synths available in the computer world. it's also THE BEST mixing platform in the computer audio world. it's also a bridge between the real world and the virtual world, the only one of it's kind, really. well, SC has always been underfunded, so the money was spent developing a killer product that won't go out of style instead of commercials. it really is a one or the other, at this time. this is not the potential user's problem, however, it's SC's problem. it's not just because SC is a bunch of idiots who don't care.

even worse, the market is run on pirated vsts. computer hobbyists can't understand why they have to actually spend money. audio and production hobbyists would always expect to pay money, much more than Scope costs. when i was first putting my studio together 30 years ago, three or four thousand dollars was chicken feed.

[Mr Arkadin]

Maybe SC should just pull the samplers from the Scope download completely, then no-one would complain about them not working. I think given how few people use them nowadays, continued development would distract from the things we really need. Most people are going 64-bit to use large Kontakt libraries anyway so it makes samplers in 64-bit even more redundant (although I am personally a fan of the old STS I use Kontakt and TAL these days).

[dante]

To me Scope has always been a no brainer - a must have. As soon as I laid eyes on the routing that was it. Now - it's more about the sound.

So the question is do you need DSP ?

Why have DSP ? If you don't believe it sounds better, then the rest - like convenience and routing - dont mean anything.

If you're scratching around for reasons not to buy it - to me that means you don't want DSP. You can get Apollo - and pay a fortune for plugs and not have the best sounding synths - again sound. Great synths count towards great overall sound.

And I kinda laugh at the 'oh I can't use Scope because STS don't work at 64 bit' due too the whole reason a Scope user would want to go 64 bit is to replace STS ... Eg large native sample libraries instead.

If XITE doesn't appear to anyone as a no brainer, it's probably not for them anyway. Scope is a system that speaks for itself - its not about advertising or upgrades - it's about top line quality to begin with.

[sunmachine]

Maybe SC should just pull the samplers from the Scope download completely, then no-one would complain about them not working. I think given how few people use them nowadays, continued development would distract from the things we really need. Most people are going 64-bit to use large Kontakt libraries anyway so it makes samplers in 64-bit even more redundant (although I am personally a fan of the old STS I use Kontakt and TAL these days).

I for one will probably downgrade from Windows 7 64-bit to 32-bit, because I want to use the STS samplers in the future (for drum and vocal samples). When I need large Kontakt instruments I can still use them on my MacBook and route them via ADAT into Scope. I don't like those huge sample libraries anyway, though... So please don't let the STS samplers die.

[Bud Weiser]

... the market is run on pirated vsts. computer hobbyists can't understand why they have to actually spend money. audio and production hobbyists would always expect to pay money, much more than Scope costs. when i was first putting my studio together 30 years ago, three or four thousand dollars was chicken feed.

so true !

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

Maybe SC should just pull the samplers from the Scope download completely

I hope you mean "from 64Bit installers" download ...

I don´t see any reason why 32Bit OS users should pass on STS just only because 64Bit nerds complain.

Bud