Sonic-Core & Kickstarter

[tlaskows]

I think if I'm not mistaken, there are more people happy with the old cards rather than using an Xite-1. I learned the hard way that you shouldn't fix what's already not broken

-Tom

[garyb]

well, thanks for the low blow.

yeah, that's the problem with making something well. there are a few advantages to the PCI cards, mainly that each card adds i/o and that the used cards are cheaper. the XITEs are better in general, though. they offer more DSP at a lower price than the cards were when they were new.

it wasn't a matter of fixing what ain't broke. it was more that the PCI slot is now obsolete. it's great that there are still motherboards that offer working PCI slots, but there will be fewer each generation.

[dante]

I think if I'm not mistaken, there are more people happy with the old cards rather than using an Xite-1. I learned the hard way that you shouldn't fix what's already not broken

-Tom

If you base that on this forum, then you are mistaken. There was a whole nether forum called XITED dedicated to ecstatic XITE users ran for several years.

[tlaskows]

Sorry, I probably made the wrong assumption. I thought most people were still rocking the 20 years all cards

It was not meant as an insult. I know that S|C does not make any money of the old cards. Maybe a few bucks here and there if people want the new software. I don't really care about having over 60 available inputs. I only have one A16 U now and it's plenty. I could sure hook up a few more, but no reason. The Xite-1 in Canadian dollars is around 7000 after all the taxes and stuff. I don't remember the last time I made that much in the last few years. I know that it's a professional tool and the price is right on for a professional user. I am not saying the price is too high, because it's not. UA gets away with charging a lot more (well, especially for the plugins). The routing abilities are still up to this day unmatchable. I'll give UA another 15 years to catch up with their 'top of the line' Apollos. Don't they use firewire or something? I haven't used firewire in like 15 years.

Even if I do save up 7 grand, I probably wound't get an Xite-1 until the cards die. It's already plenty of DSP for me. I don't really need 12 Minimaxes at 12 voices each at the same time... Most of the top 40 hits I heard on TV or radio use like maybe 4-5 tracks. Hmm...

-Tom

[garyb]

$7000 Canadian?

no. you could even find a significant discount if you go to JRR Shop.

anyway, since you have what you need, there's no reason to buy something new.

by the way, one mic and one mic pre cost me more than that.

[Sounddesigner]

I think if I'm not mistaken, there are more people happy with the old cards rather than using an Xite-1. I learned the hard way that you shouldn't fix what's already not broken

-Tom

If you base that on this forum, then you are mistaken. There was a whole nether forum called XITED dedicated to ecstatic XITE users ran for several years.

Most complaints I've read has been by far from pci users, strangely even when it's been complaints about XITE-1 flaws. That's when looking at all forums I've visited. You are correct that XITED.org had far less complaints and that was a forum mainly for XITE-1.

I think it's also great that many are VERY satisfied with their older PCI cards cause this is proof of SCOPE's longevity on many fronts (hardware build quality, software sound quality, enduring high flexibility, etc). A flaw with this platform is that it is built so great at being a longterm tool that it can be extremely difficult to get many people to upgrade because if you have multiple SCOPE professional pci cards you likely have enough dsp power, I/o's, and great sounding plugins already (all the same plugins XITE-1 has), so some may not have enough incentive to upgrade. Compare that to the old uad-1 wich was grossly underpowered and the overwhelming majority of the plugins for that platform have been created solely for the newer UAD-2, also 64bit vst support is only available for the newer UAD-2, and Apollo interface dsp is only uad-2. Because of all the huge disadvantages of the older uad-1 it was largely a no-brainer for many to upgrade to the newer UAD-2.

Avid was in a similar spot as Sonic Core were their older TDM system's dsp's were not grossly underpowered but still sufficient enough for many people to get the job done just fine. Sure some users may want more power but what they already have tho slightly underpowered is still good enough and thus not worth spending $20,000 on the newer HDX system when they can already easily get the job done with older TDM systems, so there is no incentive to upgrade for many and Avid was aware of this so Avid created many incentives.

One flaw of Sonic Core is that they have been too nice and I believe this has hurt them. Sonic Core did not do what the more successfull companies did and that's making 64bit compatibility and newer plugins only available for XITE-1. Windows 64bit support and Modular 4 should've only been available for XITE-1 and the time spent developing these new items for the older pci cards should have been used to further develop XITE-1 instead. Both UA and Avid made 64bit support only for their newer platforms and newer plugins for newer platforms as well wich adds upgrade incentive. Sonic Core did things much differently and this nicer approach is often under-appreciated. I think Sonic Core complicated things trying to develop two platforms simultaneously when their resources barely allow them to handle one platform. There is a old Indian proverb that goes "Man who chases two rabbits end up with none". After releasing Windows 7 32bit support for the older PCI cards IMO Sonic Core should've stopped there and then focused solely on their own new platform and not the older Creamware platform as well.

[tlaskows]

Sorry,

I was a bit off. It would be around 6000 CAD after taxes/duty and shipping from JRR Shop. The Canadian dollar is extremely low right now. And I need to spot working for 0$/hour. But I am inadequate... And yes, I have bought Creamware stuff from them before.

-Tom

[dante]

by the way, one mic and one mic pre cost me more than that.

Same, my Rode Classic II cost me more than the XITE-1D - given 12 years inflation between purchases of same. And they were both sore dick deals.

And they both yield similar levels of top line class and quality.

[tlaskows]

I was pretty happy with my $100 SM57. It sounded good any pretty much anything

-Tom

[dante]

Sure, I was once happy with @22 Khz recording as well !

At that stage I was using SM58's - good mics also

[tlaskows]

At one point people were happy with an 1987 Amiga that could mix 4 8 bit wave files in hardware. No multilayers or anything. People still did amazing stuff with those computers.

Do you remember the Atari 2600? That's from late 70s. I read the manual, well I think it was more of like a spec sheet on how to develop for it. The oscillators on that thing were such low resolution that it couldn't even play notes on pitch It was a lot of fun until the original NES came out with hardware sprites and better sound chip. I'm full of useless information relating to old technology especially when it has to do with sound. Still, number one spot for old technology goes to the Commodore 64 SID chip. The oscillators were fully digital, but the filter was fully analog! Oh, and the filter was nasty/dirty. It would distort like crazy at high resonance. I have a SID chip somewhere in the basement that I pulled from a C64 that I got at a thrift store for a buck. Maybe I should make a MidiBox for it. Oh, this was the newer revision chip which didn't sound as dirty. Most people prefer the old, 'faulty' chip. I don't know how I know these things, I think I've read too many datasheets...

-Tom

[zerocrossing]

Let me inject some C level perspective here. I think the difficulty is sustainability of revenue. The structural issue I see with scope is that everything about it is buy once. It's a win for the consumer. You buy the chips once. (maybe, maybe add more later) You buy plugins once. They're the best, bam. Done. Very rarely these days, you see a new plugin. Buy that, and it kills all competitors. Bam, finish. There's a clear point at which you can just stop buying. You may love and rave about what you have for years and years. But still, as an income source, that's quite limiting. The theme for me here, is that there can be too much of a good thing, especially if they're all permanent. (and permanently the best)

The barrier to entry is also comparatively quite high, both for consumer and devs. (so friction for ecosystem growth) That combined with limited revenue per user doesn't spell "scalability". (though high initial cost boosts per user life time value) Sure, a sound argument can be had in support of "high quality inherently is not scalable"... but tell that to potential investors and you may never see them again.

Anyway, don't want to put a damper on creative thought. Just want to point out some issues that need solid answers. Revenue isn't always just about reach, it's about growth, sustainability, and scalability over the long term. You don't want to sell stuff that constantly breaks or decays (built in obsolescence), but you also don't want a stagnant inventory. A healthy, self refreshing ecosystem can do wonders (ie app store / native land) but I believe there can be more creative ways for that exist rather than models we've seen thus far. (not everything needs its own damn app store. Apple already did it and owns it, move on.)

Last point.. as a former consumer, I did take comfort in the fact that I didn't need to be scouring plugins for the latest and hottest. It was comforting to know that for most of my scope stuff, I just had exactly what I wanted, and nothing could touch it. That permanence was powerful. And you can see it's at odds with an ever flowing stream of new things to buy. That's what native land is for... so whatever the solution is, I think should to take a different form. It's a tough one.

Great post. I'll fully admit that one of the big reasons I just ordered an XITE-1 was exactly for "the permanence." Not everything is represented in the Scope platform, but most of the bases are covered and the holes easily plugged (see what I did there? ) by native software. So, while I'll probably be selling my VA plug ins... basic effect stuff, etc, when something like Obscurium pops up, I would not be able to feel, "Well I have access to the coolest version of that kind of thing known to man kind."

That's OK. I know nothing can beat native plug ins for the scope of what they cover. (I can't stop! ) Also, I think that it's a bit naive to view VSTlandia as some second rate country adjacent to the promised land. There is a lot out there that is very high quality. It's not free but from the outside it does seem like there are a few dollars to be made if you have a solid product. Companies like Native Instruments, U-He, Spectrasonics, etc, all seem like they're doing OK.

Here are my thoughts. I'll probably echo them in the "I'm sold" thread, which has become about this as well. I keep hearing, "There's just no way to easily explain what Scope is!" That maybe true, but it's not the right way to think about it. How do you describe a personal computer? You don't. I remember getting my first computer (Commodore 64 FTW!) and thinking, "Well... that's it?" I'm not the programmer kind. It seemed clumsy and tedious to use. I gave it to my roommate. Traded him for a guitar.

"BUT MARK! THERE WERE SO MANY COOL MUSICAL THINGS YOU COULD DO WITH THAT COMPUTER!" you might say. You'd be right, but no one told me about them. Those applications were not on the computer and not sold at my local software retailer. The internet did not exist... I didn't even know about BBS. So, fast forward to the early 90s. I'm with that same roommate at the Javitz Center in NYC at a photography expo. He was off probably looking at enlargers or something and I stumbled upon the Metacreations booth where they were showing off Painter and offering a bundle with a Wacom tablet. I stepped up to that booth and it was love at first stroke. I was sold. Didn't matter what it cost. I had to have that. No one told me what the Mac Quadra was that ran Painter, and they didn't have to. All I needed was a peek at the "killer app." Now-a-days with the internet selling a computer is easier because many just use them as internet portals. Porn and silly cat videos are "killer apps."

That is what's wrong with Sonic Core's marketing. They are trying to explain what the XITE-1/Scope platform is. I'm pretty interested in such things, but I know a ton of musicians who are not, but they could be interested in "the killer app." Companies like Native Instruments don't explain how you need a personal computer to run their software. They just show you a cool video and some well produced demo tracks. That's the bait. You swallow it and the hook-line-and-sinker is the computer, audio/MIDI interface and operating system. You buy the boring stuff, in this case an audio interface full of DSP, to get to the cool stuff.

Anyway, you don't explain Scope. Well, you do, but not on a splash page. You show off some of your "killer apps," and let the consumer figure out what it is with their own exploration. Go into an Apple store. Every single device in the place is running some application, Logic, Photoshop, etc. It's all beautiful and the displays are sexy as hell. If they instead had some posters around describing what a personal computer, tablet or smartphone could do and every device was just sitting there displaying it's desktop screen... we'll they'd probably fail.

The good news is, Sonic Core does have a number of "killer apps," so it should be easy. One thing I'd do right away is look at some of the instrument competition like DSI, Moog, Korg, etc. Yeah, some guys are always going to say, "well I want a big analog box of knobs." Don't worry about those people, but show how your XITE-1D box can sonically best a Prophet 6 or 12. Show how much richer and better sounding the instruments included with Scope than a Virus TI2. Then show how for the same price as a Fatso you can get a 1D that at the same time will do your modulation and spacial effects... oh, while all the time equalling or besting your DAC. At that point, your DSP box won't seem expensive. It'll seem like a bargain.

I've worked in marketing long enough to have seen what I'm talking about work. Currently, Sonic Core markets itself like Oracle. That's a good strategy for Oracle, but a bad one for a consumer facing company like Sonic Core. Sonic Core needs to steal the Apple play book and go from there.

[dawman]

Well we dont need Soniccore to use Eurorack modules but we can use its awesome array of Modular modules and routing to make a Eurorack synth more flexible and less costly.
Just when the argument of expanability arises we see Scope in the forefront again.
Its modules all accept audio as a modulation source.
Now my XITE1 has a new direction for expandability.

Shocking actually to see that a pair of Behringer ADA8200s with Black Lion Audio upgrades can give you 16 streams of CV via ADAT into a custom XITE-1 Eurorack monster synth.
Savings of 2-3000 dollars with unequalled.
Maybe in a few more years in 2019 when my XITE-1 is 10 years old will I find another reason to be thankful.

As of now I have the very best sounding multi FX live mixer around that can accept or generate up to 12 sperate IEM mixes.

If Soniccore doesnt come out with new geeky stuff I'll still buy another just to have a spare.
6 years of use with never needing to spend a dime is an incredible ROI.

Hail HOLGER and Juergen.....

[tlaskows]

The word has it Holger is 'the man', but the 1st rule of Scope Club is no one is supposed to know he exists

For all of you out there, I don't know he exists...

-Tom

[braincell]

I think if I'm not mistaken, there are more people happy with the old cards rather than using an Xite-1. I learned the hard way that you shouldn't fix what's already not broken

-Tom

The Xite is way too expensive. They were not thinking. I always thought Xite was a bad idea before it was released even. The problem is we had engineers who didn't have good business sense and just wanted to create something cool that they wanted with little or no regard for customer desires.

[garyb]

that costs a crapload of money and time. you can have the "killer app" OR the marketing. which do you prefer? PCs were sold with millions, no billions(in today's money) of dollars of hype, from movies to articles in newspapers and magazines, and also TV news. it was payoffs galore. i was there. when i was 30, NOBODY had a PC, so i've seen the hype first hand. when i bought my first computer, it didn't even work! i had to update the bios and then it would just sit there. i had to by plastic tubes full of memory chips that were quite expensive, 64mb of memory was massive, and then there wasn't even software. in a few months, there were software stores everywhere selling useless games that couldn't even match up to an old Atari console. how did those stores just pop up all of the sudden? where did the funding come from?

the computer industry DO NOT WANT Scope to live. there have been paid trolls in forums and sabotage of the old Creamware servers and forums. i was there to witness these things. Scope is EXACTLY the opposite of what the computer model for business has been made into. Ken is correct. selling stuff that is meant to be replaced to a hypnotized consumer base that just wants new, shiny stuff is the plan, Bic lighters over refillable lighters that get used for years, mass consumption. the industry has done nothing to support this type of technology. of course, there's no reason why it should. as Ken said, in the current model, making something to be bought once is NOT the way to make money. once upon a time, it was the ONLY way to make money. i guess people were less foolish, or something....

also, while there ARE VSTs that compare with the better Scope plugins in quality, they are often much less practical in terms of resources used, or realtime possibilities. for the most part, VSTs cannot use the same quality of algorithms unless you want to use them offline. guess what else? NI and UAD and several other major plugin makers wouldn't be anything without Creamware employees that were fired by the German courts in the first Creamware insolvency. there really aren't that many high level coders in this world.

in order for Apple to do things the way that they do, they have had several HUGE influxes of CASH. the most important one being directly from Microsoft's Bill Gates. why would Mr. Gates prop up his competition? the computer industry is not part of a free and open market. it's part of a very large and well funded organization of big companies who have a plan, and are happy to implement that plan slowly. we do NOT get the latest tech. we get tech that is several generations old, and the path is already decided. marketing, which includes all media including television and movies and books tells us what to buy next and we happily comply. we pay for useless products that ALMOST work in order to fund the next step in the development of the plan. of course, now, there's really no need for anything new because what's here currently is more than sufficient for the average person's needs. it's actually pretty criminal that machines that already do everything that people really need them to do are here now, and yet people are conditioned to want to go into debt to buy more, and then have the systems for monitoring and control of the population put in place with peoople's own money.

SonicCore can't even imagine having something like an Apple Store, although it would be freaking AWESOME if it were possible.



just some happy thoughts for the day. it's nothing that serious. if the product is useful, then great! if it is not, then nobody will buy it. that's how things should be. as i've said before, Scope doesn't have to be mass marketed. everybody doesn't need it. for pros and for serious hobbyists and do-it-yourselfers, Scope represents everything good that computers, pieces of crap that they are, can offer. that is truly high quality audio tools that are capable of rivaling the best hardware at a price that is manageable for most people. people spend $3000 dollars on big screen TVs. the headphones and headphone amps in my studio cost half an XITE. the hardware compressors in my studio cost more than an XITE and i only have about 6.

the problem is the thinking of the "consumers". SonicCore doesn't need "consumers", they need customers.

[zerocrossing]

Well we dont need Soniccore to use Eurorack modules but we can use its awesome array of Modular modules and routing to make a Eurorack synth more flexible and less costly.

On Gearslutz I see threads start all the time that are people looking to get into modular systems but afraid of the issues of space, spaghetti and lack of preset memory. Also, afraid of the rabbit hole of G.A.S. that is the world of modulars. I see people plunking down lots of cash for old tech like the Nord G2.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150921253349

Look! You're most of the way to buying an XITE-1D with that price. If you can find a used one, you're there... and you have an audio interface and don't need to run XP to edit your modular.

On KVR, I see threads all the time of people using Reaktor to do amazing things. They're filled with complaints of pegged CPUs and hard to understand authoring environments. Though with Blocks Reaktor 6 does take big steps forward for the less technical. Still, they are monophonic, and an instrument with a fairly decent amount of complexity more or less renders my computer useless for anything else.

Anyway, like I said before, you are not going to take a lot of business from the Muff Wiggler crowd. There will always be something super cool and sexy about a traditional hardware modular set up. However, there are those among us who can't have a large modular set up but would love that level of flexibility, especially if we could achieve similar audio quality. Behold: SCOPE MODULAR! The question I ask is, why did a guy like me not know about it until recently?

[garyb]

I think if I'm not mistaken, there are more people happy with the old cards rather than using an Xite-1. I learned the hard way that you shouldn't fix what's already not broken

-Tom

The Xite is way too expensive. They were not thinking. I always thought Xite was a bad idea before it was released even. The problem is we had engineers who didn't have good business sense and just wanted to create something cool that they wanted with little or no regard for customer desires.

actually, this is half true.
the XITE as a project was overly and possibly foolishly enthusiastic. it would have been better to make the entry level product first. but at the time, 15dsp cards sold for $2000 new. the XITE at $4500 is the price of TWO 15dsp cards. it's the power of 6-10 15dsp cards. the XITE-1 is actually incredibly inexpensive. it's just that compared to free VSTs from the local file share, it's expensive.

also, it's true, SC never figured that people would be happier spending 20 X $200 than getting morte for spending $4000 all at once. this is because it's true that engineers are not marketers or hucksters. there was a time that hucksters were considered to be bad people for manipulating others....

[zerocrossing]

I think if I'm not mistaken, there are more people happy with the old cards rather than using an Xite-1. I learned the hard way that you shouldn't fix what's already not broken

-Tom

The Xite is way too expensive. They were not thinking. I always thought Xite was a bad idea before it was released even. The problem is we had engineers who didn't have good business sense and just wanted to create something cool that they wanted with little or no regard for customer desires.

XITE-1D isn't too expensive when you take a close look at it. Compare it to a Modal Electronics .002r. Same price. You get 8 notes of polyphony. It's a cool synth but it also has some odd quirks and flaws. I bring it up because I was considering one instead of the XITE-1D. I quickly realized the XITE was a much better value.

But, I agree that there should be some entry level ways to get into Scope. Plugiator type things. Those would lower the barrier to entry and later have people upgrade to the more expensive Scope hardware units.

[garyb]

Well we dont need Soniccore to use Eurorack modules but we can use its awesome array of Modular modules and routing to make a Eurorack synth more flexible and less costly.

On Gearslutz I see threads start all the time that are people looking to get into modular systems but afraid of the issues of space, spaghetti and lack of preset memory. Also, afraid of the rabbit hole of G.A.S. that is the world of modulars. I see people plunking down lots of cash for old tech like the Nord G2.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150921253349

Look! You're most of the way to buying an XITE-1D with that price. If you can find a used one, you're there... and you have an audio interface and don't need to run XP to edit your modular.

On KVR, I see threads all the time of people using Reaktor to do amazing things. They're filled with complaints of pegged CPUs and hard to understand authoring environments. Though with Blocks Reaktor 6 does take big steps forward for the less technical. Still, they are monophonic, and an instrument with a fairly decent amount of complexity more or less renders my computer useless for anything else.

Anyway, like I said before, you are not going to take a lot of business from the Muff Wiggler crowd. There will always be something super cool and sexy about a traditional hardware modular set up. However, there are those among us who can't have a large modular set up but would love that level of flexibility, especially if we could achieve similar audio quality. Behold: SCOPE MODULAR! The question I ask is, why did a guy like me not know about it until recently?

because. it costs a lot. of. money. to make people know about things. KVR and Gearslutz have PAID people posting. they trash things that are not on the bandwagon. they are paid to promote and trash. this is a big problem with the internet, false identities. in print, it is also a problem, but on the internet....i'm not even getting into the troll factor, that there are hundreds of people pretending to do important work who do nothing but post on the internet. ask Jimmy(Dawman) about how he used to bust them.

because, NI spends more money on PR than on the product.

what about less than a handful of people at SC is not understood? Scope is a miracle product! it shouldn't exist in this world. it exists because a few people wanted to do it anyway.