Page 4 of 16
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:15 am
by garyb
Mr Arkadin wrote:
Yes and sadly it would be the ignorant who would rush out to buy a gun. You've heard of chavs? They'd be the first to run out and buy a gun as a status/aggressive symbol. Believe me chavs are not the sort of people you want owning a gun. Also you keep implying that anyone who doesn't want guns is brainwashed. i find that quite insulting.
hey, YOU GUYS made those chavs. give them some education and a reason to feel optomistic and they'll stop acting like asses. THEY ARE EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF HUMAN AS YOU OR ANY OTHER HUMAN WITH
EXACTLY THE SAME MOTIVATIONS.
i find it quite insulting that you think you're better than others! why WOULDN'T you be as brainwashed as me or any other human born into a system of brainwashing? what makes YOU immune when billions of dollars and years of research have been put into finding out how to brainwash the public?
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:19 pm
by Shroomz~>
Gary, generations of poor child raising in poor conditions for bringing up children creates these so called 'chavs'. It's NOT a Uk phenomina as the chavs label would lead people to believe (and I think MR. A knows what I'm saying here). It's a worldwide phenomina in the sense that EVERY single developed western country including *your own* have this same problem. They just have different given names. You've got youth elements just as skanky & rotten to the bone... possibly even worse, since they carry more guns over there.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:09 pm
by Shroomz~>
I'd also rather walk around in a society where people didn't carry guns as a norm. Ok, that basic concept has been voiced before, but the supposedly sacred 'bill of rights' doesn't make it any less valid.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:20 pm
by garyb
<~Shroomz~> wrote:Gary, generations of poor child raising in poor conditions for bringing up children creates these so called 'chavs'. It's NOT a Uk phenomina as the chavs label would lead people to believe (and I think MR. A knows what I'm saying here). It's a worldwide phenomina in the sense that EVERY single developed western country including *your own* have this same problem. They just have different given names. You've got youth elements just as skanky & rotten to the bone... possibly even worse, since they carry more guns over there.
of course this is true! i'm not exempting myself or the USA. we're as bad as it gets here sometimes. i'm no better than anyone else here at planetz.....
it's just an argument, it's all rhetoric. if we were face to face, we'd sit down to dinner and a movie next(if not, get over your self). better to talk about it...
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:25 pm
by garyb
stardust wrote:seconded. The type of weakly motivated no perspective people is in every western civilisation society.
why? for what purpose?
one things for sure, they can become dangerous with or without guns, so can you or i.
you prefer a world without guns? me too. too bad you can't get rid of them all because the worst of us, the ones who have a pathological need to lord over others won't give up
their guns.
here's a reprint for those of you who don't understand the American point of view:
from
this website. i found it by googling "qoutes founding fathers guns" it was the first one. there is certaianly much, much more:
Quotes on the Second Amendment
The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Founding Fathers on Arms
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Founding Fathers on Maintaining Freedom
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. "
Noah Webster
American Lexicographer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
Edmund Burke
British Statesman, 1784
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later Quotes on Gun Control
"The ruling class doesn't care about public safety. Having made it very difficult for States and localities to police themselves, having left ordinary citizens with no choice but to protect themselves as best they can, they now try to take our guns away. In fact they blame us and our guns for crime. This is so wrong that it cannot be an honest mistake."
Malcolm Wallop
former U.S. Sen. (R-WY)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An armed man is a citizen. A disarmed man is a subject."
Anon.
Seen on a bumper sticker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro Gun Control
"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialist America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady
Chairman, Handgun Control Inc, to Senator Howard Metzenbaum
The National Educator, January 1994, Page 3.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you wish the sympathy of the broad masses, you must tell them the crudest and most stupid things."
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
Adolph Hitler
Chancellor, Germany, 1933
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acknowledgements
I did not personally do any research from original documents, but I would like to thank the following sources.
"Trader Bob" of Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading who had a selection in various places throughout the catalog.
"Colonel Dan" in the Cowboy Chronicle, who always has interesting commentary as well.
Marvin H. Meuser, Jr. in the "The Right Voice" has a selection of quotes supplemental to his essays on gun control.
"Never do your foe a minor injury." -- Machiavelli
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:30 pm
by braincell
Gary,
Maybe you think gun control advocates are brainwashed but that sounds very patronizing. Other countries are more advanced than we are in many ways.
I was lamenting with some friends in a chat room about having to do taxes and I asked the Scott if he has to do them and he replied that the government does the taxes for the people. That is so much better but it won't happen here. We are not organized and I contend on average not as intelligent.
People in other countries pay more taxes than we do but they are more happy than we are. It has been measured through surveys. We are way down on the happiness scale. Forty million people with no health insurance and the cost keeps going up. We get less vacations and less or no maternity leave. Our educational system is among the worst in the world. We have unequal schools because municipalities fund schools instead of the federal government as it should be. Many of our bridges are in danger of collapse.
Our electrical grid is outdated and could be on the verge of a meltdown. Our Internet speeds are the 6th slowest in the world. We are more religious than other countries which leads to more stupidity such as Kansas trying to erase evolution from science textbooks. It's bad enough that private religious schools are getting tax breaks to indoctrinate children into a fantasy view of reality but now they want to do the same thing to public school students.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:36 pm
by garyb
i'm not sure what you mean exactly. you have a particular veiw of me that's not quite accurate and the scope of your last post covers a multitude of sometimes unrelated(in my mind) ideas....
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:13 pm
by braincell
In any event, The constitution is rather vague about this matter as it refers to "arms" which isn't specific and a "militia" which some people consider to be the national guard.
The constitution should be amended to clarify this so that we can ban guns totally if the people want to. Eventually we will progress to that point that people will realize what a tragic mistake it is to let anyone buy one.
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:24 pm
by garyb
braincell wrote:In any event, The constitution is rather vague about this matter as it refers to "arms" which isn't specific and a "militia" which some people consider to be the national guard.
but the "founding fathers were more than specific about it, and it's well known what they meant because they said a lot about it. i'll post it again:
Quotes on the Second Amendment
The Founding Fathers on the Second Amendment
"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Founding Fathers on Arms
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Founding Fathers on Maintaining Freedom
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. "
Noah Webster
American Lexicographer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
Edmund Burke
British Statesman, 1784
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:24 pm
by siriusbliss
braincell wrote:Gary,
Maybe you think gun control advocates are brainwashed but that sounds very patronizing. Other countries are more advanced than we are in many ways.
I was lamenting with some friends in a chat room about having to do taxes and I asked the Scott if he has to do them and he replied that the government does the taxes for the people. That is so much better but it won't happen here. We are not organized and I contend on average not as intelligent.
People in other countries pay more taxes than we do but they are more happy than we are. It has been measured through surveys. We are way down on the happiness scale. Forty million people with no health insurance and the cost keeps going up. We get less vacations and less or no maternity leave. Our educational system is among the worst in the world. We have unequal schools because municipalities fund schools instead of the federal government as it should be. Many of our bridges are in danger of collapse.
Our electrical grid is outdated and could be on the verge of a meltdown. Our Internet speeds are the 6th slowest in the world. We are more religious than other countries which leads to more stupidity such as Kansas trying to erase evolution from science textbooks. It's bad enough that private religious schools are getting tax breaks to indoctrinate children into a fantasy view of reality but now they want to do the same thing to public school students.
In the US - increased 'dumbing' down in the school systems, reduction in school budgets (including getting rid of music programs), increased passiviity through increasingly mindnumbingly stupid television programming (i.e. 'reality' shows - effectively watching other people fuck up their lives), increased taxes (that only pay down debt and pay for war machine), trillions spent on stupid wars while leaving the poor people to swim in the streets of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina - and then blaming THEM for being lazy and living off welfare, increased toxicity and fat content in foods, GMO crops that farmers can ONLY grow by using GMO seeds - (also rumored to be killing off the bee population - effectively killing off plant vectors for crop polination), crumbling infrastructure, increased 'security' while also leaving the borders and school systems wide open for criminal attack - it's ALL upside down, and is an international epidemic.
So, OK I'm 'anti-brainwashed' in the sense that I'm 'brainwashed' in maintaining an ideal that was 'prototyped' in the US over 200 years ago as a POSSIBLITY and a HOPE for a country based on individual sovereignty distinct from living under the King (FUCK = Found Under the King - or something like that), and CHOOSING to support what's left of that intent by CHOOSING to own and maintain a gun - as a first line of defense - is NOT an elitist, or left/right religious construct, but rather a VERY distinct hope we have for everyone - and despite what BOOSH makes us look like, Americans do NOT feel elitist over anyone else in the world. As a matter of fact, when traveling abroad I PURPOSELY avoid obnoxious Americans because I just really get tired of the blatant ignorance. It's just really sad not being able to do much of ANYTHING about it other than living my own life by example.
I work with engineers from all over the world, and find them ALL VERY interesting to converse with, since many come from lands where there are hardly ANY individual rights, including from Iraq, Iran, UK, Africa, China, etc. We all get along great, play soccer together, music together, basketball together, etc. - and NONE of them care if I'm maintaining a gun or not. They know the distinction.
So, instead of just getting angry and say 'FUCK GUNS', try on FUCK IGNORANCE, or FUCK CONSPIRACIES (the real one's whether perceived that way or not), or FUCK STUPIDITY, or whatever.
<rant over>
Greg
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:41 pm
by MikeRaphone
Well yes i agree Siriussbliss, FUCK all that. But i wasn't angry when writing the subject of the topic. I rather presented a thesis so arguments could be heard(seen). Mind you, i didn't write fuck the right to carry guns in US.
Here's my contribution to the debate;
Thus I've heard:
Buddha once said, "Every living being deserves to enjoy a sense of security and well-being. We should protect life and bring happiness to others. All living beings, whether large or small, whether two legged or four legged, whether swimmers or fliers, have a right to live. We should not harm or kill other living beings. We should protect life.
..., just as a mother loves and protects her only child at the risk of her own life, we should open our hearts to protect all living beings. Our love should encompass every living being on, below, within, outside and around us. Day and night whether standing or walking, sitting or lying down, we should dwell on that love.
Meditating on love in this way brings happiness first to the one who practices it. You sleep better and wake up more at ease; you do not have nightmares; you are neither sorrowful nor anxious; and you are protected by everyone and everything around you. Those people and beings you bring into your mind of love and compassion bring you great joy, and, slowly, their suffering leaves them."
I put some of the IMO relevant parts in bold.
Peace
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:20 pm
by garyb
and of course i agree with that idea, mike.
i live that way, although i DO eat, and i'll kill to eat. roots grains fish, whatever, i will eat. likewise, sooner or later i expect to be eaten. i don't believe in enbalming or funerals, but that's another issue. the thing is, those words are not reality. the idea is beautiful, but reality is that life is hard(but wonderful and joyous). protecting life sometimes requires taking life, just as a mother or father will risk his or her life to kill a predator to protect the child.
as i said, i'm all for eliminating guns(guns are a stupid invention), but the kings, queens, senators, govenors, generals, cops, celebrities, et al need to give up theirs too. those special guns are the most dangerous ones because they protect power.
i won't live in a daydream. i will live in the real world.
in the meantime i'll meditate on love and the unity of all things and know that this gift of life, while it must be lived for all it's reality FULLY, is still an illusion...
thesis, antithesis, synthesis; the control of our minds is scientific and tested over 100s and 1000s of years...
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:43 am
by braincell
Greg,
While funding for music and the arts in schools has been cut, there is an increase in athletic funding. I was amazing at the expensive little stadium they built at my former high school. This is psychological preparation for military duty. The high school marching band is based solely on the military band. The coach yelling at the football players is identical to the humiliation faced by military recruits in boot camp. Even the way they are forced to shower together is an attempt to ready students for their eventual mission, to kill and be killed in Iraq and Afghanistan and elsewhere.
Gary,
The constitution had to be amended to allow everyone the right to vote so clearly the founding fathers were full of crap on some issues. It has been a long time since then and it needs an overhaul. Guns were not the same weapons back then as they are now and you know it. You can't compare the semi-automatic assault weapons loaded with clips of cop killer bullets with the rifles of 1787. They had no way of knowing how technology would progress. There are privacy issues in the age of the Internet we need to address in the new constitution. This is my dream but it will never happen. Like I said before, it's a stupid country.
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:11 am
by Mr Arkadin
stardust wrote:
And I see that Greg did the same peaceful living with his colleagues from all over the world. no private guns needed for peace.
i dunno, those engineers can get pretty heated when discussing EQ curves, they might have pulled a gun on him. He should have been armed.
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:43 am
by siriusbliss
Mr Arkadin wrote:stardust wrote:
And I see that Greg did the same peaceful living with his colleagues from all over the world. no private guns needed for peace.
i dunno, those engineers can get pretty heated when discussing EQ curves, they might have pulled a gun on him. He should have been armed.
maybe I was!
Greg
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:01 am
by garyb
no private guns, but a psycho like Chirac, Bush, Blair, Putin, Tony Danza, Madonna or Hitler gets government amunition to back him up? excuse me while i throw up.
i'll hold on to my right for the time being, thank you. i all the wittle babies are scared of me now, then don't come over and share my dinner with me, it's your loss. my wife's a good cook. you're also pretty stupid if you trust any of those guys over me.
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:10 pm
by braincell
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:12 pm
by Me$$iah
just outlaw children.
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:13 pm
by braincell
Did you watch the video?
Posted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:29 pm
by Me$$iah
Actually no.
I seen the post and then thought of funny ....... so I posted it.
I will watch the video .... probly tomorrow, as I dont really have time right now, however, the fact that someone killed their son with a gun, probably wont make me suddenly jump up and 'see the light' of the evil of guns. Its far more likey I'll think the guy who did the killing was an idiot.
dude, sharks eat surfers, should we ban surfing. And if its childrens deaths your wooried about, then probly the biggest killer of children in the western world is the motorcar. Should that be baned too, I mean 'wont sombody think of the children'
