petal wrote:Having guns widely available to the public, just raises the bar for which weapon people choose when in conflict. I'f guns are easy to come by this will be the preferred weapon by choise which again will lead to more killings instead of "just" injuries.
...which has been proven in numbers indeed, Europe has 'better' crime rates (tho I don't have references).
There's indeed also less class struggle here, tho it's slowly getting worse due to globalization and marketing processes in areas that were noncommercial befor.
A lot of great stuff is said already, and I just try to organize things a bit.
If in my country the police finds a nuckle-duster or even a baseball bat in your car during a standard traffic controll (alcohol, drivers licence, state of car) you'll be fined or even taken away to the police office.
I'm glad it is the way we do
Civilization means making agreements on the surrendering of public tasks to specific groups (like police or a legal system).
To prevent the political elite and their troups to abuse the surrendered privileges you must have a political system to controll them.
So you must design a democratic system somehow.
If you tolerate in your society a large group to be disprivilaged, this will undermine the system.
Therefor a democratic system should also be righteous.
Prosperity should be divided in a generally acceptable way.
So, if you, Gary, think you need a gun to defend yourself, you probably agree that the society you're living in, isn't right.
Corrupted (democratically choosen) leaders, too big differences between social classes...guns can't solve that, and I doubt you will be safer with one, unless everyone should start wearing again a gun holster, to have the gun always at hand.
Back to 'Once upon a time'?
With Immanuel I say, I have enough trust in our west-European societies to feel relieved guns are not allowed, under normal circomstances.
That's not stupid or imprudent, it even makes my life safer
Recently our national big pension funds were forced by consumer organisations to stop investing mony in companies that are making their mony for more than 50% from making weapens...
That's the way to go, in the end: ban the weapens.
Good old Nestor, as always, emphasizes the individual responsability:
My only hope in terms of “end of the violence” in the world, is in individuals, in guys that recognise they are based in false values and ready to change them for better ones.
This sounds nice, but it is not much more than tautological argueing:
To have a nice world, people should be good people...
also Nestor says:
I believe in a revolution of our consciousness as the only way to get out of the mess
Like Transcendent Meditation (TM), that says if only 'a few' people meditate, it will have a exponential positive effect on menkind?
The point is, a society should NOT be dependent on individual's consciousness.
You need structures that are explicitely independent from individuals and their consciousness, and which even live longer than the individuals that populate that structure.
and the only way to put into practice is going back to the values that nurtured, thousands and thousands of years ago, the natural people that were into the earth.
Ehh...like the picture of the primitive and wild but noble 'Friday' in Robinson Crusuë?
They were real killers Nes, these 'natural people' you're talking about
Yes, you're right, you can't have a civilized society without decent ('conscious')people, and a civilized society always has to organize good conditions for educating the new childs with the central values of it (don't do to another what you... etc.).
But I wouldn't prefer trusting just the consciousness of my fellow citizens without having any social and political structures
Structures exactly reflect the central values of the society, and therefor offer continuity.
