Headphones for Mixing...

[darkrezin]

I'm very close to buying a pair of K701 - I did a LOT of research on transparent open cans, and these seem to be the best option. I hate the colour and the fact that it's not a detachable (replaceable) cable, but I can't justify the extra cash for the 702.

Has anyone had experience of K701 and K601? Are they very different?

edit - I've now discovered that the impedance rating of the K701 and K702 (62 ohms) is under the 100-600 ohm recommendation for my mixer headphone out (DDA Interface) which will be the primary use for the headphone. Will this be a problem? I am fairly clueless about headphone impedance. I've only ever owned 1 pair of serious headphones - DT250 - but I'm now pretty sick of them and they are closed so quite unpleasant for extended listening/composition. They are 80 ohm and I notice I need to drive the monitor level higher than I do for comparable speaker volume. I'm wondering if it would be a mistake to get something rated at 62 ohm.

The K601 rating is 120 ohm which will be within the mixer specs - it's cheaper but from everything I've read I suspect they aren't as transparent as the 701.

As a side note I won't be using these for mixing as much as composition... but I would still like them to be as transparent as possible.

[astroman]

I've compared them side by side in a shop, but the listening stuff supplied was less than mediocre...
The difference was there but not exactly night and day.
On the other hand... I only realized later that the cans have different impedance, as you correctly mention.
On a low impedance output the 701 will always win subjectively because it's more 'present' due to higher loudness.
In fact I didn't even dare to replace my heavily worn 301s yet, as I'm fearing the difference might be less than expected.

cheers, Tom

[siriusbliss]

I have K701's, and it's great for even doing raw mixing.

Very clear.

Greg

[darkrezin]

Thanks for the opinions. Been doing a bit of reading about headphone impedance and it seems that using a low-impedance phone with a higher impedance output is OK, whereas using a high-impedance phone with a lower impedance output can be a problem.

Would this be an accurate thing to say?

If so I think I'll probably be ok using the K701/702 with my mixer. I reconsidered the levels issue - the phones level isn't really comparable to my regular speaker levels as I have to have the speakers turned down very low.

[valis]

I've not delved deeply into headphones, but having done a fair amount of PA & home studio setups over the years here's my understanding:

The biggest issue you'll notice with impedence is when driving a high-impedence driver with a low-impedence output is that the sound becomes overly 'restricted', narrow soundstage and poor low frequency response making things sound 'thin and claustrophobic'. The further away from the ideal in this direction the 2 are the more those attributes become apparent.

At the other end of the scale when a low impedence load is provided to a circuit designed for higher impedence, the 'control' of that circuit is compromised resulting in less ideal 'slew rate' and more 'overhang' on notes, boomier low end and so on. Inaccurate bass response (overhyped) and boxy sound are the things people tend to notice. But if your mixer is solid state and made in the last 15-20 years it probably will fare just fine for noncritical uses (non-mastering?)

Also my understanding is that impedence is a good guide but it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Most people who are into their 'cans' go through several headphone amps & DA's to get a good 'fit', impedence will only tell you part of that story. Many mixers (mine included) simply strap one of the output sections to the headphone out and provide a separate attenuation knob for it (or in some cases a separate output amp, but this is unlikely in smaller mixers.)

[valis]

I also found a shop in the US that ships Sony MDR-CD900ST, which are a rather interesting set of Sonys made by Sony Music Entertainment Japan (not Sony Electronics who makes the rest of the headphones) and apparently they've taken the 50mm driver used in the silver swivel V7's (which are the step up from my V600's) and given them good voicing. I'm going to nab them and see how they compare, I am thinking they'll become my closed-back pair for studio use and possibly for live use too (V600's "boominess" is quite useful when you're on stage with monitors & mains blaring, I still like them for that.) Hopefully these have the thicker surround of the V600's & V7's, rather than the thinnish ear surround the MDR-7506 & other 'professional' Sony Electronics models use.

Hi, did you buy the CD900ST? I'm interesting by this can, but only for casual listening.

No I wound up getting DT880's, but I have the CD900ST on my list to buy the next time I have spare change for it. I'm interested in seeing how it stacks up to my MDR-v600's that I use for Dj'ing & live PA, and even if I find I prefer it for studio use there are times when I need a set of closed cans so I think it might be useful.

[darkrezin]

The biggest issue you'll notice with impedence is when driving a high-impedence driver with a low-impedence output is that the sound becomes overly 'restricted', narrow soundstage and poor low frequency response making things sound 'thin and claustrophobic'. The further away from the ideal in this direction the 2 are the more those attributes become apparent.

At the other end of the scale when a low impedence load is provided to a circuit designed for higher impedence, the 'control' of that circuit is compromised resulting in less ideal 'slew rate' and more 'overhang' on notes, boomier low end and so on. Inaccurate bass response (overhyped) and boxy sound are the things people tend to notice. But if your mixer is solid state and made in the last 15-20 years it probably will fare just fine for noncritical uses (non-mastering?)

Also my understanding is that impedence is a good guide but it's really only the tip of the iceberg. Most people who are into their 'cans' go through several headphone amps & DA's to get a good 'fit', impedence will only tell you part of that story. Many mixers (mine included) simply strap one of the output sections to the headphone out and provide a separate attenuation knob for it (or in some cases a separate output amp, but this is unlikely in smaller mixers.)

Thanks for the info Valis - I did suspect that low load to high impedance output wouldn't be ideal. At least it's good for my wallet as I've decided to go for K601. It's just not an option for me to go through a dedicated headphone amp - there's too much gear in my studio as it is. From everything I've read, while it's not as detailed as the 701, the 601 supposed to be more musical, probably due to the high-freq rolloff. If anything it might be beneficial for long periods of composition to have those high freqs tamed a bit. All the opinions I've read say that it's more comfortable than the 701 which is a bonus. The 701/702 are also maybe overkill for composition work. The 601 is going to be a big leap forward from my DT250's anyway.

[valis]

Indeed, as my DT880's were still a big step forward for me but not the 'best' (like the DT48 which was recommended as the 'best' choice for 'accuracy' & clinical listening from Beyer, among others). Still a step forward...

Also I think how much the load imbalance (whether too high or too low) affects things is really going to be dependent on the circuitry and headphone build. At least I've been led to believe that a well built mixer made in the last 10-20 years may not suffer as badly from a load that's somewhat outside of specified impedance as older dedicated amps would have, or certain underpowered soundcards etc. Ie, best thing to do is give it a shot & see.

[darkrezin]

Yep I hear you. My mixer is from around 1985-ish so it might be fine but it's going to be hard to find a shop here with a decent price that will also let me take the things back if they're not suitable.

[darkrezin]

Well my K601 arrived today and they sound very nice I have to drive them harder than with the DT250, but that's something I can live with. At some point I will dig out the old headphone amp to see if it sounds even better with it. I wish I hadn't used closed headphones for so long.. they cause a lot of pressure to the ears. These open phones feel really great and airy, long periods of listening look viable.

edit - I've been listening to these phones all day and it's been a lot of fun The 701 must be really nice if the 601 is any kind of measure. It's a different world to my old Beyer DT250 - airy, natural and detailed. The transparency is overall very good, although the mids seem a touch emphasized. I can totally recommend these for the £120 they cost.

[astroman]

the mid's impression is probably due to the very pronounced but non-boomy bass response.
Like in a good room with speakers in 'open' space, something you rarely find in untreated rooms.
One gets used to it quickly.
I'd describe the highs as rather 'silk' than crisp, practically no fatigue for long listening periods.

congrats to your new cans and cheers, Tom

[netguyjoel]

I just picked up a pair of Sennheiser HD 280 pro headphones, IMO, for drummers...it's the shit! 32db reduction, so the cymbals don't bleed in so much, and the overall quality for audio for mixing, I find way better than many of the previous pairs of headphones from various mfgs I have owned in the past. Not bass heavy, like Sony. Those Germans really know how to do things right....
Has anyone else have a set of these or have used them before...I'd like to hear your opinions too...

thanx

[astroman]

... The 701 must be really nice if the 601 is any kind of measure. It's a different world to my old Beyer DT250 - airy, natural and detailed. The transparency is overall very good, although the mids seem a touch emphasized. I can totally recommend these for the £120 they cost.

well, it may have been... once...
I'll return my K701s asap and I'm through with the company. It's the 2nd piece that fails.
The current production of the 701 is nice to complete an iPod or so, but far from anything 'reference-like'.
Way off. It's stuffed with disco bass. Pretty good bass on it's own, but terrible in the mix.

disappointed, Tom

[valis]

dt880's have solved my fatigue issues and are well ahead of my studio monitors in terms of clarity, so I'm not unhappy. They are a tad heavy after long hours (I have neck/back issues from too many car accidents) but otherwise I have no complaints. At the same time I can see grabbing 1-2 other pairs for alternate uses (along with that other pair of high end studio monitors I tell myself I'll buy someday.)

[dawman]

The current production of the 701 is nice to complete an iPod or so, but far from anything 'reference-like'.
Way off. It's stuffed with disco bass. Pretty good bass on it's own, but terrible in the mix.

disappointed, Tom

I was surpised at how crappy every set of headphones I tried at Sam Ash & Guitar Center were. The best solution I have used to date were the 3 way wireless. The problem is they fuck up your ears and I don't think anyone will know it for several years.
Anytime I get an " Ear Infection ", that's what the Doctor said, when actually my ears protected themselves by causing a massive wax build-up. I couldn't hear or use headphones for 2 weeks.
I do take great care of my ears and because as a teenager I was also a Union Iron Worker and we were given the ear protection to wear daily. I also wore it on stage as I could feel and hear myself against the 4 Guitars, I have done this for years because the Stagehands Union requires the Hotel/Casions to have First Aid kits and they are included. Anyways, anytime my ears act so rebellious I know it is damaging, that's why I went to the stores searching.
The HD800's were the only reference headphone I demo'd and liked, but they're ridiculously priced.
Every other headphone was plagued by fake bass, and what some marketing executive felt a young hobbyist would love. The Yamaha's, AKG, Beyer and Koss were all spungy for comfort and had false referencing.
I can handle playing crappy disposable controllers until they fall apart, but the whole business, hardware and software is so scammy these days. I guess I am getting old. But I remember going into large stores and specialty shops and usually having trouble buying anything because I liked everything so much.
Now I walk in with a handful of cash and can't find a fuckin' thing I want. Even the Guitars and Basses seem cheap to me. I loved the Tobias 5 strings from the 90's but they look and feel like balsawood or Pine.
If I had to buy a pair again I would go with the Sennheisers.

[netguyjoel]

At $1,400 US...I can see your point...OUCH!
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6 ... _Back.html

[dawman]

B & H PhotoVideo....figures.
They are the most reliable and fast shipping retailer in NYC, of course with NY prices too.
They suffer from the Blommingdales Syndrome I call it.
At Guitar Center you have all of the other headphones in the room where P.A. gear is sold, that way it's inconvenient to A/B them to any quality reference speakers.
But the HD800's are kept in a locked case and the salesmen carries them over as if a Catholic Ritual was being performed. But at least they have 8 different sets of monitors with Hafler Power Amps, etc.
But in all honesty, the difference I hear from the HD800's to the Bose QC15's is as slight as the difference between 44.1 and 96k.

[valis]

I agree, the difference between a $15 set and a $150 set is larger than the difference between the $150 set and the $1500 set for sure. The gains as the price rises falls off exponentially, and your comments on build quality are imo a reflection of consumption based economics (where things are made to be replaced not maintained & repaired.)

There ARE older used cans out there that have lasted 30+ years (beyer dt48 is one such example) so it's certainly not a case of the technology 'not being there yet' (more like 'not being there anymore'.)