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an interesting link the 'Book of Cosmic Law'.
Eliam, imho the guy is not that far from your point on view.
The title may indeed suggest something different, but a quick glance over the pages made it clear that he's absolutely serious and not at all 'popularizing' the topic.

In fact it reflects much of my own experiences. I've grown up in an atheistic, reason driven home with a fair amount of hardcore socialism.
For whatever reason science had a big attraction on me (and still has) and of course I felt superior with my mind over people with religious interests and could argue with 'logic' against any ideas in that direction.

well, that has changed a lot over the years, it evolved naturally by experience and questioning whatever came along.
I apply science rules to science and suddenly it doesn't look that reasonable at all.
I made experiences with a strong spiritual influence that simply couldn't be neglected with an open mind. Be it science or faith.

Eliam, I guess I understand quite well what you're writing about, but I have a different background and would probably use different words. Like the author of the above mentioned book has.

Wavelength already mentioned the difficulty language itself produces. It is doesn't contain any value in itself, but always relies on interpretion - and that is depending on any readers personal background.

reminds me at an old Talking Head's record:

There's a word for it
And words don't mean a thing
There's name for it
And names make all the difference in the world
Some things can never be spoken
Some things cannot be pronounced
That word does not exist in any language
It will never be uttered by a human mouth
...
Give me back my name
Something has been changed in my life
Something must be returned to us

cheers, Tom

I have to agree with eliam... a lot of the time these discussions turn into an exercise in ripping things apart in the heat of debate.

Let me put the following to you:

1. It is easy to rip apart any argument or concept if you feel inclined to do so. I frequently watched the debating society at school lunchtimes (when I had nothing better to do) and this is precisely what they did on a daily basis, for fun.
Also every lawyer in the world does this on a daily basis, for money.

2. It is easy to 'prove' any argument with internet links. This does not reinforce any idea's credibility though.

It would be nice if we could have less ego in the debate, and more good vibes, and not just a willingness to disprove for the sake of disproving... we might get somewhere then.

What I'd *really* like to see is a move away from this "religion causes all wars" attitude... it's really nothing new, and is frankly boring to hear constantly. It's very simplistic.

peace

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dArKr3zIn on 2003-09-10 05:47 ]</font>

On 2003-09-10 05:34, dArKr3zIn wrote:
I have to agree with eliam... a lot of the time these discussions turn into an exercise in ripping things apart in the heat of debate.

dArKr3zIn, it was just mentioned how difficult it can be to transmit a certain intention with words - you turn my intention right into the opposite
I truely see it with a smile, no offence taken or intended.

Let me try it the other way round.
In my understanding the link above shows how someone with a scientific background discovers or experiences spirituality.
It reminded me on some of my own experiences, and I added a small part for the sake of a personal background.
In no way it was to express an 'that's me - I (am) must be right' intention.
Somehow I found it amusing that Eliam refused an opinion fairly close to his own.
But that's really no big deal, he already mentioned the 'quick look'.

I completely agree with Eliam on his viewpoint of a kind of 'cosmic' or 'superior' context. Sorry for not finding better words to describe it.

My 'contribution' was that science and spirituality don't exclude each other - there is only one existence, even if you could mathematically paint it as an infinite number of parallel worlds, the final unity can only be experienced.
Eastern philosophers call it Yin and Yang - scientists have the dualism of wave and matter.
One experiences this by meditation, another with the ideal of faith in God - the pictures may vary, but the item is the same.

cheers, Tom

Hey Tom

My words were very general, not directed at anything in particular.. just at the way the thread has gone so far..

I can't argue with what you say at all there

peace

Astroman, the perspective you bring is interesting and quite valid imo, for it illustrates a trend that science has to take if it is to transcend its present general state... I know that many scientific discoveries were Divine Inspiration picked up by open minds and brought into manifestation from the Universal sea of Wisdom for mankind's blessing; and that God's Perfection can and has to manifest through every constructive human activity, be it art, science, religion, philosophy, etc, etc.

I am very encouraged when I see that "scientific" minds open up to the infinity of Divine Possibilities and realize that there is more in the infinite Universe than the intellect alone!

Yes, I know, I quite firm when it comes to these popular spirituality writings... Why? Simply because I read hundreds of them in my quest and if I found gems in them at times, the overall effect on my life was to cause more confusion than clarity. You know, when everyone goes with his own interpretation and tries to figure things out with partial, limited understanding and perspective, the results are correspondingly partial and limited, and solid accomplishment can hardly be built on partial foundations... So I tend to treat these books as a bunch of maybe partially useful in some instances, maybe wholly destructive in some others, but hardly quenching spiritually at all.

On 2003-09-10 12:17, eliam wrote:
You know, when everyone goes with his own interpretation and tries to figure things out with partial, limited understanding and perspective, the results are correspondingly partial and limited, and solid accomplishment can hardly be built on partial foundations...

I agree totally!

But I think that anything more of that is an illusion. I reject the temptation to feel bigger of my real size.

We don't know almost anything, we have some operational memory built on our needs. Why should I trust anyone claiming to know how things are and who made them? I know that the idea of our limited lifetime and the mathematical structure of our way to systemate the world brings fear and fantasies on the time beyond our time, but of all the thousands of theories that the human kind produced to compress the fear, those related to a superior reality are based on papers that we saw only as written by other humans claiming that the originals are revealed by divinity...but who saw the originals?

The same approach I have with science. Faith in science has the same defect of faith in god...it's faith. Believing that the world is made in 3d because we see it in 3d is the same error as saying that god exists because we need it.

I feel better if I accept human knowledge as limited. I do it totally.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: alfonso on 2003-09-12 20:32 ]</font>

Alfonso, I fully respect your views. I was the same myself once, and you are quite right to say that it can be misguided to believe what another man says.

I think the only way that faith can be achieved and sustained is with a totally individual experience: whether you have faith in God or not, your worldview is constantly being tested at every turn. This is what interests me about these type of discussions... lots of wildly differing views and stories.. but at the end of the day only you can decide for yourself. Therein lies the beauty of it all.

peace

Alfonso, thanks for sharing your perspective! I agree with you that any written instruction, even the very Truth Itself, won't produce results unless put into practice.

I want to ask you a question: do you consider Jesus and his "work" seriously? I don't mean the Bible, I mean Jesus Himself.

On 2003-09-12 20:51, eliam wrote:
I want to ask you a question: do you consider Jesus and his "work" seriously? I don't mean the Bible, I mean Jesus Himself.

My dear pulsarian friend, I was born in the sixties, what do I know of Jesus except what I've been told?
Some things I've been told about him are very inspiring, some others horrible, in fact, what was inspiring or horrible was the personality of those who were talking.

What I like about Jesus tales is the socratic way he had to put in crisis the farisaic establishment's cultural immobility.
As we all know Jesus and Socrates were condemned for similar reasons (establishment's fear), both accepted (are said to) their death as a contribution to awareness and morality.

All the other stuff as miracles etc. I tend to put it together with similar things found in all cultures (Sai Baba etc.), and don't give any credit, at least to the explanations provided, as I never experienced such phenomena.

Today there are some personalities that I respect very much and I find inspiring, like Gino Strada, the doctor that leads (and hardly works) the organization "Emergency".
He's not religious, and his reasons and motivations are very political, but he dropped a life of money and succes (He seems to practice top notch surgery) to risk his life in the worst places (Afghanistan, Irak, during the wars) to repair smashed legs, arms, livers and all the worst of the very desperate people, under the bombs.

I'm sure that under different myths, religions, cultures, atheisms or skepticisms, there are a lot of people that love the others, and contribute really, and I'm sure that both you and me are deeply moved inside by such things, so we happen to be a religious man and an atheist that have in common very much, much more than many people of the same philosophical cathegory...

On 2003-09-12 20:51, eliam wrote:

I want to ask you a question: do you consider Jesus and his "work" seriously? I don't mean the Bible, I mean Jesus Himself.

how can one consider Jesus without the New Testament(s)? they are our only real windows into his life and teachings, besides some slight mentionings in historical texts. maybe i am not understanding the question properly...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wavelength on 2003-09-12 22:13 ]</font>

well,there are actually lots of writings(in the k(K)oran for example),just counting the "sacred" texts.beyond those however,the writings are endless.....

on a personal note,i'm always sceptical of the veracity of statements made about something that by definition is beyond human comprehension.religions(always made by and for men while attributed to devine inspiration and who am i to argue),whether true or false have no effect upon the organizer of the micro and macrocosims,neither does what we think.all these things are our problem....

First, I never read the Bible, so I have only glimpses of what is said there, but I feel that there are some distortions about Jesus there. Nevertheless, personally, I feel a strong connection with Jesus and He is my greatest example and inspiration. The question was mainly about what we call Miracles. Miracles are by no means supernatural, it is mankind who is so used to live in a sub-natural way that to most people, Miracles are unbelievable.

One citation that Jesus gave in the Bible goes like that "All the things that I do, every men shall do, and even greater things." This truth is a pillar in the foundation of my existence. Every human alive has within, maybe dormant, the power to levitate, to precipitate matter from the universal, to etheralize matter and to travel great distances in very short time, without any outside apparatus.

I'll come back to an example I gave previously: if you want to learn to play any given musical instrument, how do you proceed? Simple: you work until you get it right, you hire a teacher, buy the instrument, biiks, etc. The more determined and intense you are, the quicker you'll master the discipline. That is perfectly natural. Do you ask your teacher : "prove it to me that I can play flute well and I will believe it!" With such attitude, no one will get very far, let alone master any instrument. The only way is to believe that you can, "have faith", and get to work until you PROVE IT TO YOURSELF! There is no other way, with any activity, including the higher Powers which lie dormant within each of us. Every single being has to prove to himself or herself that Jesus was right and fulfill the Cosmic Divine Law! Otherwise, no amount of exterior proof will ever convince one who refuses to accept the possibility of the accomplishment, until this individual firmly determines to BE the proof that there is more to Live than mankind's obscure and limiting misconceptions.

It's funny how people (including myself) use and prove the Law constantly for the things they are used to and refuse to prove the very same Law when it comes to "unusual" activities.

On 2003-09-12 23:22, garyb wrote:
well,there are actually lots of writings(in the k(K)oran for example),just counting the "sacred" texts.beyond those however,the writings are endless.....

the New Testament Gospels are the definitive accounts of Jesus' life and teachings and my point was that to talk about Jesus and his message, without reading or referring to the Gospels (the Bible), seems rather ridiculous.

the Koran talks about Jesus, but shifts his "importance" somewhat to suit the "newer" Islamic viewpoint.

no other text deals with Jesus in the depth that the New Testament does. most other texts are based on these Gospels in some way (even the Koran's later depiction of Jesus).

if you are referring to "the historical Jesus" (ie: the actual physical evidence of Jesus' life), then these things are still being discovered all the time... but have not, thus far, significantly challenged the Gospels as the definitive story of Jesus and his teachings.

to talk about Jesus and not the Bible is an odd thing, indeed.

On 2003-09-12 23:41, eliam wrote:
First, I never read the Bible, so I have only glimpses of what is said there, but I feel that there are some distortions about Jesus there.

where do you truly read about Jesus, if not from the Bible? what are you basing these "distortions" on, if not from the apparent inconsistencies from within the Gospels themselves? what other Jesus-reference are you basing these "distortions" on?

if you really truly dig Jesus, maybe you should read the Bible?

On 2003-09-12 21:27, alfonso wrote:

Today there are some personalities that I respect very much and I find inspiring, like Gino Strada, the doctor that leads (and hardly works) the organization "Emergency".
He's not religious, and his reasons and motivations are very political, but he dropped a life of money and succes (He seems to practice top notch surgery) to risk his life in the worst places (Afghanistan, Irak, during the wars) to repair smashed legs, arms, livers and all the worst of the very desperate people, under the bombs.

ironically, Dr. Strada is more Jesus-like than many Christians. Jesus was always about the practical things... we must feed the poor, heal the sick and wounded, consider the lowest and weakest as top-priority.

EDIT: even when it is dangerous for one to do so... another parallel.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: wavelength on 2003-09-13 05:42 ]</font>

On 2003-09-13 05:15, wavelength wrote:

if you are referring to "the historical Jesus" (ie: the actual physical evidence of Jesus' life), then these things are still being discovered all the time... but have not, thus far, significantly challenged the Gospels as the definitive story of Jesus and his teachings.

There is an egyptian writer who published a book called "The man who became God". He has a theory supported by 2000 points that Jesus was only an ordinary man who became great by a series of circumstances.

I like to keep my beliefs simple and admire what Jesus stands for.

Paul,

I wish everyone was like you. It seems like where I live, (In the USA) it's the Christians who always want to go to war and they want the death penalty. I don't think Jesus would like this. They also want the mandatory jail terms. I think Jesus wanted to forgive people. Am I wrong?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: braincell on 2003-09-14 19:07 ]</font>

Braincell,

you are not wrong, these people are assholes who abuse the concept of Jesus and God to give their hate some kind of moral authority.

For the umpteenth time, the concepts of Jesus/God are not the same as established notions of Christianity, be they conservative or liberal.

For a fascinating look at the concept of forgiveness, check out the movie 'Bad Lieutenant'. Hard viewing, but worth it imho.

peace

Without orgainzed religion there would be little faith and arguments over "order in the universe". Everywhere in nature there is beauty created by the laws of nature and living things can be very beautiful. I think when people see this beauty and natural structure they assume there must be an artist behind it. Just because something has an incredible beauty or structure does not mean that some being planned it. It's just the way things work. The Milky Way is like a Jackson Pollock... only more intense!

this is pretty cool:

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,60452,00.html