Nails in the Coffin

[Mr Arkadin]

Synopsis (2): once a troll...

You know, that sad thing is that i actually think he is not a troll, which leads to the disturbing conclusion that he believes everything he repeats.

[valis]

It was more of a lighthearted verbal jab than a scolding proclamation, but it could be so.

[garyb]

opinions, music and computer ownership are all possible to enjoy, criticize, and prticipate with while having little true intellectual capacity and/or intelligence... heck, i've proven that personally, so i know about what i'm suggesting. there are some truly emotionally disturbed and even crazy people out there, as well as folks with lead and mercury damage, and some who can only be described as retarded, so there are many possibilities beyond troll, including "true believer" and hypnotized....one thing's for sure, he's way off base even if he's a normal, healthy guy with bad information.

bc, you can't be looking very deeply at some of the things you're suggesting. on the food, astroman is absolutely correct. there's way more than enough farm capacity. the system the world operates on(which includes insane ideas like "philanthropy", which is a band-aid on a compund fracture) is not made for the happiness of people or a pleasant environment, but as a means to power for those who are most ruthless. deviants have created the society in thier own image and now they are trying to make the rest of life deviate from it's normal working mode of operation, while knowing little to nothing about such things. that's not very smart.

regardless, the point of this thread, was the emails from that hallowed institution whose data the UN's IPCC and the Kyoto framers used to constuct this "global warming" scare, show that the data was FAKED. therefore all this human energy used for "solving" this "problem" has been a waste, misdirected, and would have been better used elsewhere on some of humanities REAL problems.

fake data=bogus conclusions

[Mr Arkadin]

i still haven't seen a direct response as to how these emails can be explained away.

[siriusbliss]

deleted - problems with the new Firefox

[siriusbliss]

Gene manipulation is permanent and does affect future generations. We are getting close to having the ability to eliminate inherited diseases from our gene pool. If you think man should have no control over nature, the next time you get sick, you should not go to see a doctor. There is a religion which dictates that god should be in control and it is called "Christian Science". When they don't take their dying children to the doctor, they get in trouble with the law and as far as I'm concerned, they should have their asses put in jail. Like it or not, gene therapy is becoming a standard part of modern medicine. It's called "progress".

So man-made manipulation of nature is OK, but manmade CO2 and 100% impact on the environment is not?

GREAT logic there BC. I know where you're going, but I now realize how twisted this is, and how the argument is moot.

Greg

[siriusbliss]

We have to weigh the possible risks with the possible benefits and I don't think the risk is that great. We could create a bacteria which makes cheap and cleaner fuel from grass. If you had a deadly disease, wouldn't you want your genes altered to cure it or to prevent you from spreading it to your future children? It's not just about making tomatoes taste better. It's also about being able to grow large crops with less pesticides and less herbicides and less fertilizer.

The problem is that they are merging locust genes in with the corn and other grains. Monsanto has the key trigger that turns on the seeds that only THEY sell (they've even patented this process). If farmers do NOT use Monsanto seeds, then the pollen from neighboring farms flies over and kills your local crops - thereby forcing the farmers to buy into the Monsanto scheme. These genetically altered crops are now proven to be not fairing any better than normal crops do against pests, and the jury is out on what the health effects are of eating corn that has pesticide built right in. In truth they are putting MORE pesticide/herbicide, etc GROWN INTO the cell structure of the corn.

And domesticating animals through crossbreeding or whatever, is NOT the same as genetic manipulation like merging RNA from two entirely different genus/species.

Greg

[garyb]

i still haven't seen a direct response as to how these emails can be explained away.

you won't.

[iSiStOy]

"probably", we won't get any answer... And probably, we won't get any other objective investigation regarding that particular subject...
You remember me saying how one cannot avoid our current medias focusing onclimate changes and what to do fro a better life, for all of us...
I get the feeling they didn't made it for communicating regarding mail hackings and climate change proofs... BUT there is ONE respectable journal/media in France still, in my opinion, that got me (I paid fro that!) some kinda interesting information.
Completely independent from financial funding and totally integrated into the arcane of French politics.
If some of you don't know about this one or maybe consider it is a COMMUNIST paper, know they survive since 1913 during the 1st WW, created to fight state censure. They are completely assuming their financial investments, but for survival causes. Probably one of the oldest and most incredible information structure I know about: "le canard enchaîné".
Sure, They lack people to translate their opinion, but you'll get quite some links if your look for them on google.
PS: they survive crisis but they don't give any content on the internet. And I'd say it is the first time I respect such a decision from a media!
They initially fought against political censure. Please also be warned that they are sarcastic, as a tradition...

[braincell]

People have pig valves put in them So what? I don't care how strange it seems as long as it helps us. Merging genes from different species isn't evil. You just can't accept it because it's new. That is the basic foundation of your philosophy. Any new things, conservatives won't accept. The fact that it seems strange is not a good argument against it. If we don't do it because of the republicans blocking it, other countries will and eventually we will demand it here. Everyone wants to live.

[braincell]

Astro is wrong. The reason they are destroying all the rain forests in Brazil is because there is not enough farmland.

I have a friend who graduated near the top of his class at Harvard and he is a renowned economist and he strongly favors gene therapy and gene manipulation for agriculture. He was almost a biology major and has a keen knowledge of biology, more than anyone in this forum.

You all think you know better. You are not experts and don't know what you are talking about. Calling me a troll is not relevant to the argument although it might make you feel better in an infantile school boy sort of way.

[siriusbliss]

People have pig valves put in them So what? I don't care how strange it seems as long as it helps us. Merging genes from different species isn't evil. You just can't accept it because it's new. That is the basic foundation of your philosophy. Any new things, conservatives won't accept. The fact that it seems strange is not a good argument against it. If we don't do it because of the republicans blocking it, other countries will and eventually we will demand it here. Everyone wants to live.

Man are you confused. You relegate every problem to conservatives (which believe it or not I am not). VERY shallow argument based on narrow view of what's really going on.

I'm all for things new (like Xite), and am co-developer on three different media projects now that are VERY new, so you can dump that argument.

Pig valves in the heart is not MERGING genes.

The issue is that what IS being done is NOT beneficial, and is based on profiteering.

Better thing to do is to just switch OFF the gene that triggers cancer (for example- if that's really a cause) rather than merging in some donkey cell just because they don't get cancer. It's illogic at work.

History will show that we're manipulating things the wrong way and it will backfire.

Switching to nuclear power because it doesn't expel CO2 is stupid because it overlooks the tragic issue of digging up and then burying the radioactive fuel.

Can't keep killing flies with a sledgehammer.

Greg

[iSiStOy]

Plz, let me explain a diff. point of view...

Did they ask you about it, at least?
I suppose it's a NO. Let them ask you what we think about immigration in your place or genetic modifications of the human genome or whatever thing that is directly a concern for the mass...
They'll probably be surprised, and so would we... As a matter of fact: France (again sorry) went recently into a so called debate regarding National Identity and at the same time, Switzerland, through a popular votation, failed to afford the fact that country is prepared to accept more Minaret (more Islam symbols).
Looks dumb but it reflects what are the people's feelings at instant t. I'm definitively not defending that opinion, coming from of a family of what your people would have called communists, a decade ago. What is important, is that (even if some of us will too easily say it's electoral manipulation) the people through some kinda referendum, said NO: no more Minaret in CH! They were the more people accepting foreigners in geographical Europe before that votation!
CH is using federal & local votations for several centuries. And I'd say it helped develop some interest into politics for the mass, even if it is for the worst!

These votations also give the ability to the people, also through votation, to invalidate previous votations. Because change happens (it's an add for Zurich Insurance company )

[garyb]

lots of confusion, but little about the FAKE data being used to impose public policy....

[astroman]

Astro is wrong. The reason they are destroying all the rain forests in Brazil is because there is not enough farmland...

sorry Brain, I didn't write anything about the rainforest at all - those million tons referred to cereals grown in the US (and several other nations...)
but I'm pleased to see you're supporting my point with an example yourself

such farmland usually serves to grow cattle for export, for cash - not for food
those people who (usually) buy the meat oversea (at the end of the supply chain) are fed up to the neck with that stuff
consuming at least 5 times as much as required, let alone what would be good for their health

even your oh so highly regarded scientists name malnutrition a major source for most diseases in the western hemisphere, cancer among them
your equally appreciated antibiotics are on the best way to grow more and more fatal strains of microbes
because they have been abused (for profit) and been applied by (so called) educated scientists lacking even the most humble common sense
it may interest you that Norway is among the most 'safe' locations in the world regarding accidently aquired deathly infections
because they started to rigorously restrict antibiotics decades(?) ago

there's probably a 6-figure annual death-toll in the US by drug side effects during 'regular' medical treatment in hospital
supervised by educated scientists (you probably guess why there are no precise figures...)
this does not refer to cases of severe illness or emergency

your Harvard friend doesn't even qualify to wipe my a** with his papers, that's about those kow-it-alls

cheers, Tom

[braincell]

It's expensive to import beef from Brazil but it is possible because of the demand which was recently exacerbated by farmers growing corn for ethanol. That decreased the amount of available farmland for food crops and increased the cost of corn and beef. Perhaps if we were all vegetarians there would be enough farmland but that aint gonna happen soon. We will have mass starvation in poor countries before we give up eating beef.

[astroman]

our economy isn't that different, isn't it ?
Can't be expensive to import beef from Brazil to the US, if (here) a piece of lamb from New Zealand costs the same as a German one...
it is sick to fire an oven with bread to bake new bread (as mentioned above)
it's equally sick to grow food for fuel for a fake 'mobility' that mostly pleases one's ego - and fills the pockets of a few ones.
there is no need for > 30 HP cars for private mobility - it just fails on bragging...
there's also no need for moving storage to trucks on the road for this 'just in time' nonsense
it's all fake bla bla bla
you could effectively change a lot with very small efforts, ignoring the climate bs blurb alltogether
but some (few) would suffer severe losses - and that's why the keep fooling people
the latter seem to be pleased and not willing to think on their own... so be it

cheers, Tom

[valis]

The corn myth is also not "true". Go check the stats and you'll find surplus production every year, and when there isn't it's because the government PAYS the industry to hold back on production.

The problem is that there is a bottlneck in our nearly vertical distribution system, similar to how refineries are used to limit our 'production capacity' in Oil. And much like Oil, corn and other commodities are allowed to be traded in fun & imaginary ways via things like 'futures' and 'put options'. Check the companies that were trading in corn & oil futures during periods when there was 'scarcity' and I think you'll find for instance that Exxon was giving itself a lot of money to stockpile its own products, same with our large corporate growers for corn & other commodities.

Now while stockpiling is bad for what actually reaches the end user, this is actually GOOD for people who are producing things as it means the production side's balance sheets continue to rise. Prices to the consumer also rise, and the only real 'danger' is that too much is stockpiled and good ole Uncle

The reason that particular few seasons stuck in people's minds via the news 'reports' is because it was connecting to the agendas both oil & corn traders ("Oh, corn'll never work...so we'll have to keep buying $4.50 oil for a while longer now...meanwhile those corn chips are a bit more expensive sorry!).

The news about Mexicans starving for a lack of corn is somewhat true, but the funny thing is that it tends to be true regardless of what 'corn production' is like, as it's a product of the politics, economy and racial issues in Mexico. The 'middle class' there is considerably smaller, and the treatment the lower class gets as a result isn't what you're used to here.

[garyb]

all food shortages are political and man-made. here in America, the powers that be have subsidized factory, corporate farming for huge profit margin, but with little responsibility to human beings. the family farms and backyard farms are being legislated out of existance. con-agra wants to run all food distribution in the name of the UN.

...and the global warming data is still fake.

[valis]

You know gary I would have responded to one of your posts but I can't disagree, as it is 'disconnected from being able to be verified' rather conveniently.

As for 'hearing about this' from our 'traditional media outlets' I'm willing to bet we actually will. Much like the post 911 articles that sought to 'investigate' and give convenient explanations to put everyone's mind at rest so we can get on with being good consumers...just minus a few more of our rights in the name of our 'freedoms' (a little more paradoxical thinking for us to consume)