PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

It's just disappointing that's all to learn there may have been an update and it's cancelled because there may have been some neat functions to come online besides cables that aren't "square" .

Personally, I don't really care about the samplers now I think about it and if I want/need more I'll have to start thinking about an outboard digital mixer.

As for wave audio, it's largely irrelevant to what Scope actually does (I have a TC Electronic BMC-2 so it's even less relevant).

I'd speculate that maybe OSC might have been the reason why Scope 6 was canned. Only just today did I try out some MIDI control from the sequencer but 16 tracks would not be nearly enough and it's cumbersome to use anyway.

P.S. Dante I use Kontakt and X-table

Good point, but it's not dead as long as your old computer keeps on working

-Tom

Oh yeah, maybe the development is dead/slow. But they say it's coming...

-Tom

development is very slow.
in the best of times, with the size crew that SC has, it takes 2-3 years to make a new version of Scope. it's very complicated. since v6 did not work as it should and the project had to be restarted, it is even longer. v6 has been a tremendous strain on the company, but that doesn't mean that the company just gave up.

in any case, Scope works with the current os. what doesn't work is minimal and there aren't any showstoppers. in fact, there aren't any more problems than exist in any other computer-based audio software. no one has been ripped off or sold something useless. in fact, it's just the opposite.

Yes, I've been writing code for a long time. There are always bugs. Actually, Scope 5.1 is quite bug free compared to some other softwarez out there!

-Tom

Well I really wonder what Scope 6 can improve. I mean, if it was just bug fixes that could have been done as a point release. An new STS6000 I don't know about, if it would just be a matter of recompiling with 64 bit compiler but there is probably a lot more to it than that, and with everyone using Kontakt etc now having moved on from the AKAI format, no guarantee of ROI.

I really think it is the AKAI format itself that has died more than S|C support of it. I mean, we've been thru the GIGA Generation since then and I don't hear of anyone much still using that - let alone any company being expected to release their sample sets in GIGA format any more - there is no East West Giga Leap is there ? I use a soundfont (I made myself) - maybe once a year ?

I love my XITE-1.
I basically use it as a hardware mixer with some specialized MIDI devices.
But to support the company I would buy Scope 6 and pay 500 USD.
For what I dont know.
Maybe realize the popularity of Eurorack synths and use Modular V as a new way to use modules from Scope Modular combined with Eurorack modules.

Otherwise who needs new synths and FX.?
Don't we have enough already.?

Scope has made me so much money.
Same with Kontakt Solaris PianoTeq.
The fact it makes those instruments sound better seems to be plenty for me.

dante wrote:Well I really wonder what Scope 6 can improve.

Well, I didn´t expect that question appearing here but I tell you:

1)
For the live gigging musician who wants to use all in up to now in SCOPE 5.1 included S|C devices on a 32Bit or 64Bit machine, all the MIDI CC assignment and MIDI preset system has to be improved because the software doesn´t store all user assigments in every device and / or in a project,- thus doesn´t make it total recall like we want.

2)
Artefact free preset switching on synths, at least when no exchange of modules (OSC or VCF types p.ex.) inside the engine happens and no samples are in use.

3)
Better DSP offload and improved automatic DSP assignment when removing devices from actually running project, replacing these and/or load in new ones.

4)
Some (minor) GUI bugfixes,- like that from MINIMAX OSC #1 octave switch which always drives me nuts.

dante wrote: I mean, if it was just bug fixes that could have been done as a point release.

That´s correct and I´d appreciate any SCOPE v5.2 bugfix update over any release of a possibly half-assed SCOPE v6 in a hurry, especially since we now know S|C had to throw a nearly finished v6 version into the bin, caused by bad working programming tools.

I think, what I mentioned above could be improved already for a SCOPE 5.x version and does not urgently require v6,- but I might be wrong.
OTOH, MIDI existed before SCOPE already, so it should already work as expected incl. a perfect MIDI preset system storing ALL MIDI CC assignments reliable and for total recall in each device and project since the 90s.

dante wrote: An new STS6000 I don't know about, if it would just be a matter of recompiling with 64 bit compiler but there is probably a lot more to it than that, and with everyone using Kontakt etc now having moved on from the AKAI format, no guarantee of ROI.

It is a wrong assumption everyone uses software as samplers.
It´s the same wrong assumption everyone prefers software over hardware now.
The opposite is the case,- most, if not all, the professionals prefer hardware over native software and I still kept the most of my hardware since I´ve found out SCOPE cannot replace all this for realtime/live work because of the issues mentioned above, but I really wished it did which was originally my target when I buyed XITE-1, in fact being a hardware device.

Now it became a studio tool but my prefered job is playing instruments and not tracking, mixing or mastering.

dante wrote: I really think it is the AKAI format itself that has died more than S|C support of it. I mean, we've been thru the GIGA Generation since then and I don't hear of anyone much still using that - let alone any company being expected to release their sample sets in GIGA format any more - there is no East West Giga Leap is there ? I use a soundfont (I made myself) - maybe once a year ?

In most cases the format only changes because you shall buy new.
As an example,- Spectrasonics Atmosphere and now Omnisphere, Trillogy and Trillan as well as the Stylus RMX stuff is full of old samples the designer originally did for Roland or everything they sold earlier on Spectrasonic CDS for all kind of hardware samplers incl. AKAI, Kurzweil etc..
That was in the late 80s and 90s, so now guess which tools they used realizing these libraries.

The AKAI S3K sample library was and still is a professional library and it comes w/ small footprint being made for hardware samplers w/ very little memory.
Same w/ EMU.
Both formats sound s##t in Kontakt once converted and they sound "outdated" when you hear ´em in Kontakt or other software crap samplers.
IIRC, it can be they sounded a bit better when using Phead "Reload" for conversion over to Reason 4 and "Reload" was able reading floppy disks.
But load AKAI samples and programs into my S-1000 or S-1100 and you know the difference.

Now we have a phantastic piece of enginering and DSP hardware w/ XITE-1 and there are over 300meg of up to now by S|C stock devices unused memory across the chips inside XITE-1,- and there are the STS samplers which are working in 32Bit systems ...
AKAI samples sound very good in STS and what sounds good is good for any composition/production.
At least the best of the AKAI libraries released on CDs were good enough for the 80s/90s millionsellers, weren´t they ?
What about EMU Universe of Sounds for EMU EII and the other EoS samplers libraries incl. the Proteus stuff and such?
All that made tons of hits while today all the amateurish users out there tinke w7 their computers ansoftware more than making good music at all !
convert EMU into SF2 and use in STS, sounds great !

No,- STS isn´t dead as aren´t AKAI samples for me,- so for the future I hope S|C will lift that device up into 64Bit world which doesn´t mean it has to come up w/ "featuritis" like software sample players have to.
Just only make it run in 64Bit and it don´t even has to adress 8, 16 or 32 gig of RAM IMO.
Instead it would be cool using XITE RAM, maybe user selectable.

VDAT,- it is "outdated" too when comparing to DAW, but for some backing tracks it is cool.

So why lossing devices when a new SCOPE version will appear ?

Bud

dawman wrote:I love my XITE-1.
I basically use it as a hardware mixer with some specialized MIDI devices.

Well,- you changed it by good reasons so to say, isn´t it ?
Formerly you used it for much more than only a mixing device and "some specialized MIDI devices".
The truth is you go back to hardware more and more,- also in regards of synths and you also use native software live, then mix in SCOPE.
Nothing against that, but spending 4 grand for XITE-1, then using it as a digital mixer only isn´t what upcoming customers expect.

dawman wrote: But to support the company I would buy Scope 6 and pay 500 USD.
For what I dont know.

You know for what,- as a digital mixer isn´t it ?

dawman wrote: Maybe realize the popularity of Eurorack synths and use Modular V as a new way to use modules from Scope Modular combined with Eurorack modules.

Eurorack modules is not what the average keyboarist needs,- only a minority buys these.
OTOH, when S|C modulars II, III and IV allowed switch/recall user storable presets w/o reloading the overall shell all the time, using XITE-1 just only as a modular synth makes sense, at least for the users being modular synth fans, nerds or whatever you call ´em.
But also here, that´s not what the average user needs, they want synth emulations like Minimax, Profit5, any subtractive, wavetable, additive, FM/PD and such.

Now don´t tell me about BC Modular, it´s 3rd party and updating/upgrading SCOPE is task of S|C.

dawman wrote: Otherwise who needs new synths and FX.?
Don't we have enough already.?

In SCOPE (vintage) synth subset, I miss a device emulating the Oberheim state variable filter from SEM module as well as the multimode filter from Xpander, maybe CS80 and Roland JP-8 filter too.
Then combine like in a Studio Electronics Omega or such.
Such device should come w/ vintage exponential envelopes too.
A better FM device than the 3rd party F07 would be good too,- coded by S|C and mimiking something more advanced than a old DX7.
We have great Moog, ARP, SCI and Roland Juno as SCOPE devices though.

All should run well on XITE,- the PCI cards are discontinued, so all the other 3rd party stuff running better on PCI but lack performance on XITE doesn´t count,- not for the presence as also not for the future.

Bud

dante wrote:Well I really wonder what Scope 6 can improve.

Extreme in one sens or the other is never good, I believe.
I'm absolutely sure that Scope and Xite-1 is the best soft/hardware for making any music nowadays.
But improvement for Scope, there is ! One should just let imagination working... :

- First, a good midi implementation / timing. Simple ideas : like in kontakt : lag on midi controlers data, percentage on midi controler data (it should already exist in Scope midi menu ! But doesn't work at all ! )., several parameters on the same midi controler number in the same device...
- Modulation devices for other device : LFO, for instance, or envelope, modulation wheel, etc... Which could modulate any device parameter, with a centralized clock linked to any clocked device like delay, modulation fx (phaser, flanger, wah-wah,etc...)
- Good automatic dsp assigment.

There is a lot of things to improve in Scope !! I'm sure other people have other ideas !

I suppose the difference is I am not a live performer, so yes - better real time control I can see there. But most of he rest of the features mentioned here to me represent a point release - improving features that fall short for some.

From a studio perspective - and I'm running 96khz mixes up to 80 tracks and 1ms latency all due to XITE-1D and Rack Extensions.

Taking Cubase out of the loop was the best thing I've ever done since buying XITE-1D. Sure it means loosing investment in Kontakt but since having purchased 70 Rack Extensions I would never have the need of Kontakt, AKAI, Giga or soundfont.

Orange tree Jaco maybe the only exception.

The problem with hardware samplers of the 90th eg S1000, Proteus (which i now have as Refill) is they do not represent individual instrument styles.

Kontakt and the rest of NI bundles come a lot closer but to me neo suitcase Rhodes is a somewhat clunky interface compared to Radical Piano RE (which covers Whurlitzer as well as Rhodes) and is Pianotec really 3 times better than Emotional Piano RE as the price ratio represents ?

So RE - all instrument specific interfaces, affordable, integrated perfectly into Reason environment with not just MIDI but CV as wells, drag and drop and autoroute to track is the way of the future for virtual instrument both sound wise and workflow wise.

And like Jimmy says, Scope makes em all sound way better.

On the topic of FM synth for Scope. I have the FM 07 and was not happy. No presets! Cannot load DX7 presets! So I bought a cheap Yamha DX7s, works great, but a bit noisy. Also, a MAJOR problem, I think the FM 07 is using analog type FM rather than the Yamaha table lookup logarithmic addiction instead of multiplication, because it uses a LOT of DSP! Yes, a proper FM synth would be welcome, but right now I don't have the time to implement one. Too busy writing iOS code unfortunately... I have the SDK and I know how to implement one though, the proper way that it uses almost no DSP.

Oh yeah, I cannot justify spending 6000 CAD + tax on an Xite. I am happy with my 3 Pro cards that I paid around 2000$ for. Plus, I can have like hmm, 50 something inputs. Just need more converters...

-Tom

Well the Reason PX7 RE comes with all stock DX7 roms which I was happy about. Same parameters and the GUI kicks ass. 100 bucks and can run as many instances as I need (DSP lite), no noise whatsoever.

I just googled that and I get links to guns! lol

The problem is, I'm used to Sonar and already paid for it. I don't wanna switch DAWs. There's a free VST called Dexed that can send/receive from a DX7... well that part works fine. But it's missing a lot of parameters right now. And, 99% of the presets don't sound anything like on a real DX7.

I swear I will write an DX7 emulation for Scope, but I need to write my custom oscillators/atoms. 5.1 doesn't seem to let me do that. What should I do?

-Tom

That looks nice, but can it run in Sonar?

Thanks,

-Tom

sure, with rewire.

Lol ! Yeah, I used to use Reason as a big sampler runnin rewire into Cubase - that works. Would work with Sonar as well if Sonar supports rewire.

But - thinking about the origins of Scope - being PCI and all, I would think its heritage would be Studio based, not live, being PC bound.

Generally, the use of PC's live, and Scope with it, I guess would be an afterthought. There was a time when PC's in general were too cumbersome or unreliable to use Live. Jimmys 'Scope4Live' concept seems more of a wow factor (hey, you CAN use Scope live) rather than the norm. In the 90's, when Creamware started, I imagine tripledat and Scope evolved from Studio needs (radio stations, mastering houses, event driven audio, recording studios etc).

So the live use of Scope is an adaptation rather than an original design goal. Yes, XITE is rack moutable, but it still requires a host. Thats why Scope compliments Solaris - which would itself be the main live pitch for (Creamware originated) DSP.

Hmm, cool. I think Sonar has rewire. But I don't have 100 USD to blow right now. I already have the real deal! But's it's a b!tch to program, come on! Is there any good fully featured programmers out there for it? Dexed can do it, but it doesn't show all the parameters??

Thanks,

-Tom

dawman wrote:I love my XITE-1.
I basically use it as a hardware mixer with some specialized MIDI devices.

Bud Weiser wrote:Well,- you changed it by good reasons so to say, isn´t it ?

Formerly you used it for much more than only a mixing device and "some specialized MIDI devices".
The truth is you go back to hardware more and more,- also in regards of synths and you also use native software live, then mix in SCOPE. Nothing against that, but spending 4 grand for XITE-1, then using it as a digital mixer only isn´t what upcoming customers expect.

I mainly use Scope as a mixing platform for Cubase and it is great when there are no glitches recording back into the DAW.

I would pay decent money for an X-ite provided all devices are supported in some way in the 64 bit environment because to put it quite simply, while I am not using AKAI samples I would like to but would I go back to 32 bits, unlikely because of DAW requirements.

I could look at my Task Manager and see if what I am actually using warrants 64 bits, since in the past only mixing meant I could have other things running in the background but recording digital audio means I must have a honed system.

What I really dig about the Scope concept is, I really have two studios, the DAW and Scope; scope gives me an additional way to include effects without having to buy more DSP from other manufacturers but only in realtime.

If I could run VDAT in scope using MTC or something else this would be a blessing but i believe this is not possible even in 32 bit.

tlaskows wrote:Hmm, cool. I think Sonar has rewire. But I don't have 100 USD to blow right now. I already have the real deal! But's it's a b!tch to program, come on! Is there any good fully featured programmers out there for it? Dexed can do it, but it doesn't show all the parameters??

Well I programmed the DAS one - the algorithms are different and so are a few of the parameters, but I could still get a few of the main stock presets that came with the orig DX7 so it can be done. Divide and conquer by doing one carrier stack at a time:

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_12/f07_mast.htm

Tips for reprogramming the DAS F07 to get original DX7 sounds:
. The gain structure of each operator can be influenced by few parameters, so I found it beneficial to eliminate velocity control or scaling by setting all F07 Velocity Control offsets to maximum.
. Program one operator stack at a time by turning OFF operators on the original DX7 and turning their counterparts down on the F07
. Use your ears compare the original sound to your emulation continually as you go.