Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

[Bud Weiser]

Hi Bud / 53E7, possibly this link may answer some of your questions, or get you in a position to be able to do a more-focussed google search....

http://www.rme-audio.de/en_support_tech ... q_10entryd

Thx, I know this site because I have a RME card too,- the old Hammerfall non DSP.
Unfortunately also on this site, I don´t see if there´s only ONE wave driver in the list or multiple ones.
I need to know if there should be only ONE "wave REG_SZ wdmaud.drv" in the list or not.
Actually I´m talking about my office machine which only has onboard audio activated and no other audio card installed which avoids confusion.
So,- only one audio device,- how many wave drivers ?

For the SCOPE machine w/ same mobo, I´d be able to differenciate between system wave driver(s) and these drivers SCOPE installs.

There´s also the question if wave, wave 1 and wave 2 might be different drivers,- older and newer ones p.ex. and which to delete in the end.
Does "wave 1" and "wave 2" mean,- "wave 1" being older than "wave" and "wave 2" being the oldest ?

I assume I can delete wave 1 and wave 2 and leave only "wave",- but I´m not sure.

Bud

[Eanna]

Maybe try disabling the audio device thru Device Manager.. Check device properties for the driver name? Disable audio in the bios and see any difference in registry?

[Bud Weiser]

Maybe try disabling the audio device thru Device Manager.. Check device properties for the driver name? Disable audio in the bios and see any difference in registry?

Well, we´re talking about 2 machines here which show the same issues,-

1.)
My office machine w/ onboard audio activated because I need it and the machine is not for audio work.
It shows red DPC latency spikes after 3 minutes and I cannot find out why.
No conflicts in IRQ/ressources because I deactivated the game port, all COM serial devices and 1 of the USB controllers.

Now,- this machine has the same mobo as my ...

2.)
2nd rackmount DAW machine which has a SCOPE PCI card built in.
I want to use this machine for just only SCOPE 4.5, the STS samplers and (BC)- Modular.
In this machine´s device manager,- I deactivated the same stuff I mentioned above AND the onboard audio device as well.
Even there are also no conflicts in regards of IRQ,- same bad results of DPC latency checker !

Both machines run Win XP SP3 32Bit b.t.w. ...
The mobo is ASUS P4B533-V
With this motherboard,- I´m unable to find out what causes the DPC latency spikes,- regardless what I do,- but they have the PCI slots I need because I will get a 2nd SCOPE PCI card soon.

Nonetheless,- I´ve now found out I can delete the "wave 1" & "wave 2" drivers leaving only one "wave" driver alone and onboard audio still works as also streaming audio in browser (Youtube p.ex.).

3.)
My 3rd machine for XITE-1 doesn´t show these issues even it´s a Win XP SP3 machine too,- but different mobo because of PCIe.
ASUS P5WD2 Premium.

Bud

[Eanna]

The one time I had to solve dpc latency, I had to
1. Remove a wifi card
2. Disable windows power saving settings

[Bud Weiser]

The one time I had to solve dpc latency, I had to
1. Remove a wifi card
2. Disable windows power saving settings

Well, no wifi card inside and power savings disabled anyway.

For the SCOPE 4.5 machine,- I´d probably roll back to Win XP SP2, nothing else, then install SCOPE all new.
The only idea I have now is Win XP SP3 causing the issue.
Weird ...

Bud

[garyb]

XP sp3 is ok on the computer i'm typing on.......

[Eanna]

This tool (LatencyMon) is what helped me isolate my problems...
Shows latencies down to the driver level.

http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

[jksuperstar]

Everybody seems to know about DPLAT, and that only shows you that there *is* a problem.

This tool will help you debug where the problem is coming from, potentially.
http://resplendence.com/latencymon

Getting a solo IRQ is one thing, getting the lowest possible solo IRQ is the next (so it has priority over the other devices if there's a conflict), and tuning PCI Latency Timers once the IRQs are set is the last step. I no longer have any PCI devices since I've moved to laptops, so I can't provide much support, but tuning the PCI latency timers was something I used to do back in the day. Here's an article I found on the topic that might help:
http://raincomputers.com/thecurrent/adj ... ci-latency

Once you have that done, I use a program called AlactrityPC. Religiously. You run it before your DAW software (etc), and it'll shutdown any system resources, processes, or programs you don't need for music. Afterward your done making music, it'll bring all those things back up & running. And, it'll clean up your RAM beforehand. For me, it'll even start SCOPE, CopperLAN manager, and then my DAW, with a few seconds between each to allow them to fully load. For me, this takes out a LOT of guess work for where troubles come from, since it minimizes them in the first place.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/alacrit ... =directory

Last, I found out a few years ago while creating a development system (not windows, mathlab actually) that indeed, turning off all unused system resources (USB, COM ports, etc), in the BIOS if possible, DOES improve system response time. This happens below the OS. Windows, MAC, whatever, it's true for any Intel architecture system. I was able to get a PC to respond to 33 microsecond interrupts. That's like having a 0.033ms ASIO Latency (or <2 samples @ 44.1kHz). However, the more resources in a system, the more each IRQ needs to filter out which device exactly, sent it. And that takes time.


[edit - nice Eanna...you posted while I was typing ]

[Bud Weiser]

XP sp3 is ok on the computer i'm typing on.......

yep,- it´s also o.k. on my office machine I´m typing on, even it shows the DPC latency prob also w/ onboard audio I use listening to Soundcloud and Youtube etc... .

The real prob exists w/ the machine I have for SCOPE PCI which is the same mobo and even I deactivated everything necessary to get an exclusive IRQ for SCOPE PCI.
Even I don´t see any issues w/ ressources in device manager, it shows the DPC latency problem and now I have no idea how the get rid of it on BOTH machines mentioned above.

That said,- Win XP SP 3 also good w/ my main DAW machine and XITE-1 PCIe,- absolutely NO DPC latency problem.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

This tool (LatencyMon) is what helped me isolate my problems...
Shows latencies down to the driver level.

http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

This app doesn´t work w/ Win XP !

Bud

[Eanna]

Its gonna be a driver, or hard page faults. Try checking dpc latency once you boot in safe mode, and again safe mode with networking. Then try disabling your page file, and check again..

[Bud Weiser]

Everybody seems to know about DPLAT, and that only shows you that there *is* a problem.

Yep, that´s exactly MY problem because I´m on Win XP.
The Intel P4 single core machine I use for SCOPE PCI card is so old it won´t run Win7 as also SCOPE 4.5 won´t run w/ Win7,- so it keeps Win XP.

When I had a ASUS P4T-E mobo w/ Rambus RAM in that machine,- I had no issues,- but 2 of these mobos died here.
Now I have the ASUS P4B533-V w/ P4 2.66GHz/512MB cache and 2 GB Kingston RAM for the SCOPE PCI and have the DPC latency issue I´m unable to get rid off even I don´t see any issues in devicemanager/ressources.
The card has it´s exclusive IRQ, but DPLAT shows yellow and red spikes as it does on my office machine which is the same mobo.
Latest drivers are installed on both machines and Win XP SP3 is updated too.
The graphics card is a Matrox G550 AGP which always worked flawlessly in the former builds for SCOPE PCI as also RME Hammerfall 9652.

This tool will help you debug where the problem is coming from, potentially.
http://resplendence.com/latencymon

Getting a solo IRQ is one thing, getting the lowest possible solo IRQ is the next (so it has priority over the other devices if there's a conflict), and tuning PCI Latency Timers once the IRQs are set is the last step. I no longer have any PCI devices since I've moved to laptops, so I can't provide much support, but tuning the PCI latency timers was something I used to do back in the day. Here's an article I found on the topic that might help:
http://raincomputers.com/thecurrent/adj ... ci-latency

Once you have that done, I use a program called AlactrityPC. Religiously. You run it before your DAW software (etc), and it'll shutdown any system resources, processes, or programs you don't need for music. Afterward your done making music, it'll bring all those things back up & running. And, it'll clean up your RAM beforehand. For me, it'll even start SCOPE, CopperLAN manager, and then my DAW, with a few seconds between each to allow them to fully load. For me, this takes out a LOT of guess work for where troubles come from, since it minimizes them in the first place.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/alacrit ... =directory

Last, I found out a few years ago while creating a development system (not windows, mathlab actually) that indeed, turning off all unused system resources (USB, COM ports, etc), in the BIOS if possible, DOES improve system response time. This happens below the OS. Windows, MAC, whatever, it's true for any Intel architecture system. I was able to get a PC to respond to 33 microsecond interrupts. That's like having a 0.033ms ASIO Latency (or <2 samples @ 44.1kHz). However, the more resources in a system, the more each IRQ needs to filter out which device exactly, sent it. And that takes time.


[edit - nice Eanna...you posted while I was typing ]

All good tips for the next computer build when I need Win 7 or 8 for SCOPE 6.
Thank you !

Bud

[Eanna]

Hi Bud, found this tool that runs in xp... Ratt from Microsoft... I haven't tried it, but you can read about it here..

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.dalmolen/En/Com ... racing.htm

Do try the ideas in my post above too... And good luck!

[53E7]

Unfortunately the MIDI problem has appeared again. I'm not sure I can continue to put myself through this. I just want to make some music. I can't spend the little time I have to dedicate to making things trouble shooting Windows problems. By the time I re- arrange all my MIDI channels in my project and try and make sense of this I'm too tired to make any music. I may have to find a simple modern reliable interface and just focus on Ableton's synths and VST plugins. And no, I can't afford an X-ite right now.

[Eanna]

Hi man, I'm hearing your frustrations... Is it an ableton problem or a scope problem?
Does midiox show bad Midi data being sent from ableton? The same Midi that scope's Midi monitor shows?
If not, then could you send Midi to midiox, and forward the Midi onto scope?
Do you have any hardware synths? Do these have the same stepping problems?
Even a soft synth that can run in standalone mode receiving Midi via midiox? Or to another DAW, like Reaper.. Either send Midi to Reaper and record the Midi, or send it to a synth hosted in Reaper..

I know, you want none of this system diagnosis crap.. I think you haven't quite exhausted all avenues, so some time, I would try my best to see where the problem is, and together we might find a workaround...

[Eanna]

Also, if it is a windows problem, then jksuperstar's AlacrityPC software may have the solution..

Great idea for a piece of software btw!

[Eanna]

Worst comes to worst, send the Midi out to a Midi cable via a Midi interface, and into scope..

[Eanna]

Once you have that done, I use a program called AlactrityPC. Religiously.

Hi JK, any chance you would share out your "profile" file. I'm on Win7 32-bit, and I'm interested to see how you've set up yours...
Did you base yours on BlackViper's optimisation tips?

Cheers, Eanna

[53E7]

OK this time I know what the problem is for sure since I can replicate the error consistently. The problem was my USB mouse. Can you believe it? I read some older threads here on Planet Z and people were saying get a PS/2 mouse. I had an old optical PS/2 mouse so I tried it out in the PS/2 port. No problem. I put the USB mouse back and restarted my PC a few times. The intermittent MIDI port switching started up again. I put the PS/2 mouse back and restarted to find the correct MIDI port. I am never using a mouse in my USB ports again with my music PC. I just bought online a new basic Cherry (German PC Keyboard Company) PS/2 mouse that I will be using in my PS/2 port. Well I hope that helps someone out.

[jksuperstar]

Once you have that done, I use a program called AlactrityPC. Religiously.

Hi JK, any chance you would share out your "profile" file. I'm on Win7 32-bit, and I'm interested to see how you've set up yours...
Did you base yours on BlackViper's optimisation tips?

Cheers, Eanna

I have x64 Win 7, and most of what I've detuned is Lenovo software. But, I do have a profile that does follow the some of the BlackViper's optimization. Just KNOW, that if you need to use network, Bonjour services, WiFi, or connect to another computer, the blackviper stuff shuts down most of that. Which is why I haven't used that profile in some time.

It's very easy to start with, so don't be intimidated. You can always go back and turn things on (if you turned off too much). The first thing I shutdown is actually Windows Explorer. That'll take down you start menu, and such. If you need it again, you can ctl-alt-del, run the task manager, then start a new task, and type "explorer". Turning off Windows Explorer will stop windows from casually searching for printers, other computers, etc. (I'm not talking about Internet Explorer...that should already be killed by you). Since I use a laptop, most of what I shutdown, aside from power managers and such, is the resident software for things like media buttons on your laptop or extended keyboard, your camera/microphone, mute buttons, background audio effects for the built-in audio chip, etc. Those device related programs will check on the hardware every so often, or poll it regularly. I've find those things force my audio buffers up, since they usually need IRQ attention as they talk to hardware. Basically, I use the latency monitor and windows task manager to find what eats IRQ time, memory, or other resources, and see what I can kill there.

53E7 - good find on the PS/2 mouse. Those do have a dedicated port and IRQ. One other possible solution (since laptops don't typically have those ports anymore) is finding a special USB Hub. They are called "MultiTT" or Multi-transaction translator. They're not really any more expensive. Most hubs don't convert USB1.0 to USB2.0 very well. In fact, they switch from one device to another, making your USB2.0 port on the host look like a USB1.0 port servicing all attached devices. A MultiTT hub will treat the timing of how a host accesses each device as a USB2.0 device, but talk to each device at it's native speed. So less latency, and less overhead for the host to talk to each device. Alot of slow devices like Mice are advertised as USB2.0 compatible, but can only transmit at 1.0 speeds, and a MultiTT Hub solves that issue. Here's one that I use (it's small, and can be velcro'd in racks or the back of your laptop easily):
http://www.amazon.com/USB-Ports-Multi-P ... =de_a_smtd