PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

I have 16 ms delay. That is really good for me. I have seen accounts of as little as 1.7 ms but I can work with this.

16ms!!??

.Net is MS's attempt to wrap all of their coding stuff into a new paradigm (ie, create more bloat). Nothing wrong with it if you're writing YABA (yet another business app) but drivers shouldn't really need it. Most likely ATI's drivers just use it for the control panel and other bits exposed via the windows GUI, the real issue is that ATI's drivers are pushed out the door on a schedule that favors new features over stability, and installation & removal is still painful even years later.

Guru3d.com has a nice free up-to-date tool called driver sweeper that you can download and run in safe mode after uninstalling drivers (from normal, non-safe windows, then boot to safe mode & run this) to clean up detrius between driver installs. This helps a bit, but to get all features working under a single driver revision I've actually gone to the Omega Drivers more than once, though sadly he's not maintaining it as much as he once was.

In any case as you've discovered most of this won't directly impact your Scope cards as much as it would have in years past (the first generation of boards with PCIe had issues, as do many older Nforce boards with PCIe, and of course non-intel chipsets with AGP are prone to issues, especially from via/sis but these are all being replaced by most people by now hopefully).

Btw if you can't get below 16ms then it sounds like you have your first gen card seen as the primary card, overriding it with the cset.ini trick won't necessarily fix that if it's the first card the BIOS & windows 'sees' on boot. Swapping card order for my Scope (2nd gen 6dsp) & Pulsar1 cards proved to fix that here, as the 6dsp 2nd gen card is now the primary card by default without even doing the cset.ini trick. I then of course applied the cset.ini anyway, but as has proven the case in the past, PCI 'steering' tricks (IRQ or otherwise) are not always as stable as things being addressed properly in the first place.

I can use 3ms on a p4-era Xeon machine without any issues, although software cpu load of course rises with this latency. 6ms is quite usable, and I rarely need to go higher unless doing final mixing under high cpu load (but I've got a new machine for that these days anyway).

On the upside, at 13ms latency you're not going to have to hand adjust any of the stock delays...

The 16 ms is on the Echo Audio card in my new DAW. The old DAW uses two second generation CW/SC cards and I have more latency on that machine. Generally, I work with 30 ms on that one for mixing. It took me years to get it that low and I had to basically put two other Creamware cards (first generation) in my internet computer. I don't use that one for music but it registers 24 ms in and 24 ms out. I bought a total of 4 CW/SC cards plus the A16 and tons of software. Probably about $10,000 spent over the years and still crappy latency!

The 16 ms seems rather stable though. No matter how fast I play I hear no clicks and pops. I also can't seem to change it by raising or lowering the buffer. I think ASIO4ALL is tying it with WaveRT directly to the hardware. That is my guess. I don't know anything. If it is 16 ms and rock solid with many tracks, that is a very good thing to me.

"Probably about $10,000 spent over the years and still crappy latency!"

Well you cant in all honesty blame THAT (latency) on the creamware cards??? You can work happily on 7ms on the oldest CW hardware, as long as you're computer hardware isn't shot together by a shotgun, or have abnormal software.

Yeah, with the right motherboard, I've been good to go at between 10 and 15ms latency for almost 8 years now.

For the first couple years - going back to my original PulsarI - I was running it on a 'non-friendly' PC that had other junk on it, and the latency was noticeable.

Greg

Yeah whatever Greg. I am happy for you.

braincell wrote:OK listen, maybe it's easier on a Mac or whatever. I *do* blame them. You should be able to buy something, install it and it works. The customer should not have to be some major fucking computer programmer to get a usable latency. I'm not saying other cards are necessarily better. It's just a miserable situation and it is not my fault. You think I didn't try each and every suggestion in this forum? Maybe Creamware should have made a list of exactly what hardware and software to buy and how to install it.

It *should* be easy. If you don't agree with that, you are a dick.

Maybe they learned their lesson with Xite

Good point. Less time on support calls.

If Creamware had told people what hardware to buy, and what software to install, most people wouldn't do it anyways.
IMO this is a big reason that there is a lot of bundling going on in the marketplace - under the assumption that people will plug-n-play their way to nirvana.

Otherwise they'd rather complain about one thing or another.

Greg

gee, i never use much more than 4ms....

Greg,

Have you noticed that all other sound card companies have a FAQ section, tips, free downloads. They don't have any of that on their website. They could at least put up a few patches every now and then and a list of what motherboards work well. You say nobody will look at it? That is total BS! Their public relations is horrid same as it was with Creamware. Helping customers is a part of their job not just making equipment and hoping someone buys it. They don't care about customers. That is clear.

braincell wrote:Greg,

Have you noticed that all other sound card companies have a FAQ section, tips, free downloads. They don't have any of that on their website. They could at least put up a few patches every now and then and a list of what motherboards work well. You say nobody will look at it? That is total BS! Their public relations is horrid same as it was with Creamware. Helping customers is a part of their job not just making equipment and hoping someone buys it. They don't care about customers. That is clear.

If you were to read on this forum going back several years you'd see several postings of configurations that work - plenty of people sharing successful configurations or not.

Too many possibilities and variations that yes, people tend to stray away from anyways. The Magix guys posted ONE successful system configuration, and very few if any people paid any attention to it. People want different video cards, different this, different that.

YOU wouldn't ever be satisfied with what they offered up anyways, so what are you complaining about?

The cset.ini tweak was posted years ago. Originally posted by one of the Creamware guys or veterans - can't even remember anymore.

There's always the possibility that dedicated threads will start when this thing gets released anyways.

I think you should start your own company and see what it takes to develop and support something like this with a small team.

Greg

siriusbliss wrote:
The cset.ini tweak was posted years ago. Originally posted by one of the Creamware guys or veterans - can't even remember anymore.

Greg

I read this of course. Obviously a better place for this would have been on the Creamware website.

siriusbliss wrote: YOU wouldn't ever be satisfied with what they offered up anyways, so what are you complaining about?

Greg

Don't be condescending Greg.

There should be a help section on the Sonic Core website. Don't say there shouldn't be because customers are too stupid to read it. Their site shouldn't be just a place for them to sell stuff. The relationship between a company and the customer should not end at the point of sale. A website is an ideal place to give helpful advice and maybe even help customers avoid problems before they occur. You can't argue with that.

I didn't see the computer hardware configuration post many years ago. I don't read every post and this site isn't organized in a way which would make it easy to find even had I know it was there which I didn't. A better place would have been on the Creamware website.

Setting up a tiny booth at NAMM isn't going to do anything. They should talk to Kensuguro about marketing because clearly they are clueless about. The relationship between a company and the customer should not end at the point of sale.

Paul Tanti (Creamware support) told me I should get an ASUS Intel motherboard when I asked him what I should buy and that is all he told me and that is what I did buy so don't blame me. The next mobo was also an ASUS Intel and now with two type 2 cards and it has too much lag but not as bad as the previous which was nearly unusable.

Argh! Be practical, Brain! Whenever you need any sort of help, this is the place to come to! You know it, so why keep ignoring it and pretend there's no one in the world that listens to you or helps you?

We all agree so far that S|C should improve its costumer relations and overall comunications. In time, this will happen, for sure, it has to! Right now, I hope they focus on geting the XITE up and running and after that's done, they can compile a FAQ that addresses the whole range of hardware and focus on finding new costumers - something that will be hard to do if they rely only on their current PCI range.

But for now, this is by far the best user forum I have ever found, every single question is answered in a helpful manner, and specific issues can be debated and resolved - whether you have a scope system, or are thinking of getting one, or whatever. So it's not "official", but that's even better. It means that the technology they produced so far has the quality to bring us all together in a cooperative, helpful and autonomous manner. It's not the same down at Steiny forums...

S|C is not perfect, and it's not the only high quality audio manufacturer in the world, but it's like family to us users - and I have never even met any of them. There's no point in pretending all is well and perfect in Scopeland, and there's a lot of things they could be doing better, and we should let them know about them, I agree with you on that, but please, be a little more positive... It will come back to you

braincell wrote:

siriusbliss wrote: The cset.ini tweak was posted years ago. Originally posted by one of the Creamware guys or veterans - can't even remember anymore.

Greg

I read this of course. Obviously a better place for this would have been on the Creamware website.

It's actually in the manuals I believe, at least that's where I recall reading about it. If not the manuals then a readme file that I got with my SFP 3.x & Scope4 installers.

braincell wrote:

siriusbliss wrote:
The cset.ini tweak was posted years ago. Originally posted by one of the Creamware guys or veterans - can't even remember anymore.

Greg

I read this of course. Obviously a better place for this would have been on the Creamware website.

siriusbliss wrote: YOU wouldn't ever be satisfied with what they offered up anyways, so what are you complaining about?

Greg

Don't be condescending Greg.

There should be a help section on the Sonic Core website. Don't say there shouldn't be because customers are too stupid to read it. Their site shouldn't be just a place for them to sell stuff. The relationship between a company and the customer should not end at the point of sale. A website is an ideal place to give helpful advice and maybe even help customers avoid problems before they occur. You can't argue with that.

I didn't see the computer hardware configuration post many years ago. I don't read every post and this site isn't organized in a way which would make it easy to find even had I know it was there which I didn't. A better place would have been on the Creamware website.

Setting up a tiny booth at NAMM isn't going to do anything. They should talk to Kensuguro about marketing because clearly they are clueless about. The relationship between a company and the customer should not end at the point of sale.

Paul Tanti (Creamware support) told me I should get an ASUS Intel motherboard when I asked him what I should buy and that is all he told me and that is what I did buy so don't blame me. The next mobo was also an ASUS Intel and now with two type 2 cards and it has too much lag but not as bad as the previous which was nearly unusable.

Wow,
Well I guess you told me eh?
First, Paul isn't here (I don't think), so you're stuck with condescending assholes like me for now - so deal with it.
Second SC obviously doesn't have all this setup yet. When they do, hopefully you'll be satisfied. If not, then a NICE, PROFESSIONAL courteous request would go a lot further than blaming them for having a small booth at NAMM (probably lucky they were there at all), and only being interested in selling hardware (which is what is required to get a company going in the first place).
Third, AFAIR Creamware never posted tech support tweaks for the cset.ini on the Creamware site because they chose to link to the tech. support threads on this forum instead. There was apparently more direct feedback here, and I never recall getting any responses to tech. support calls/emails anyways. If you run into any of the former Creamware guys, you can ask them why they never posted all the tweaks or hardware configs. on the site. They obviously opted to use this forum instead, and they DID post the SFP patches and updates.
Fourth, you should really just do a search for cset.ini in this forum as well as archive.org (wayback machine) on the Creamware site - (going back to 1999 or so I figure), and you'll see plenty of support and recommendations. There are also some tweaks posted in the SFP support manual I believe, but they're probably outdated by now.
Fifth, I never said that customers were 'too stupid to read it' - so don't put words in my mouth. You're reading and interpreting through a very narrow aperture here.
Sixth, I highly recommend you stop calling me names. Not that I really care anyways, since I already know I'm a pompous, condescending, self-righteous asshole and many other things anyways.
Seventh, YOU weren't at the LARGE Creamware booth 9 or 10 years ago (at least I don't think you were there), when I called out the 'prior gentlemen' developers for releasing a product with crappy drivers and shaky OS. At the time Creamware had taken a big bite at entering a new aspect of the market, and it just didn't work. People were upset, but soon enough, with enough support from THIS FORUM (more so than what Paul and the other guys were probably able to handle or respond to at the time I presume), things stabilized. So stop calling me an ass-kisser and put yourself in SC's shoes - or try starting your own company only to have people badger you for not meeting everybody's expectations on a whim. Just know that I WILL be holding SC accountable along the way, because I believe this technology is valuable in this marketplace filled with also-rans (my opinion).

Things have come a long way, and if you're still dissatisfied (or just go through life persistently unsatisfied or whatever), then I highly recommend you just sell your Scope card(s), get the new VST Flextor (still will be awesome), and move on with your new sound card - since I see you're satisfied with 16ms latency (which is good for many cards).

I will say that your rash demeanor here at times comes off sounding more like 'that other forum' (like Cubase or whatever ), which just doesn't help YOU constructively, when you're quick to jump on people's statements, or twist their words. You're really just making it harder on yourself.

Carry on,

Greg

p.s. and THANKS for posting the Windows 7 test results here dude. That's what this forum is all about

valis wrote:

braincell wrote:

siriusbliss wrote: The cset.ini tweak was posted years ago. Originally posted by one of the Creamware guys or veterans - can't even remember anymore.

Greg

I read this of course. Obviously a better place for this would have been on the Creamware website.

It's actually in the manuals I believe, at least that's where I recall reading about it. If not the manuals then a readme file that I got with my SFP 3.x & Scope4 installers.

Yes, correct. I still have it somewhere.

Greg

They ought to have a help section on their website. That is how I began and you disagree with me. I don't see how you can but you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.