Making the world a better place
Re: Making the world a better place
I know there is a collective intelligence. I'm not sure if this applies to music. A lot of people seem to be working very hard lately to undermine progress in science. As far as music goes, the internet seems to be a force for change as it allows people to self-publish. It's better to have more music, even if there are fewer listeners. A lot of wonderful music is being released without any financial gain. Like sex, music doesn't always exist just to earn money.
Re: Making the world a better place
Music is not in danger.
Re: Making the world a better place
Sorry to come in late, just noticed this post and its a very interesting subject, on which i have my own observations about:
1) What does making the world a better place mean? some things make the world for some, and while rarely thought about makes it worse for others. This is such a complex matter, that most people just stop thinking and use their gut to tell them what is good. Usually their gut instincts will be based on morals that might clash with other peoples morals, and one has to think about that (which makes that whole thing yet another facet of a mans moral stand)
2) After much debate i have come to the conclusion that knowledge is what people need most, to keep up with this crazy race called life. Knowledge can be earned in several ways. Usually it is either by memorization, or by exploration. The memorization approach (which is what is used in 99% of the schools) is inefficient, since it teaches only one subject, and needs a teacher to be present along 100% of the way. Exploration however, is much more efficient since while you learn one subject you learn how to tackle general problems and essentially learn how to explore. The problem with exploration, is that it needs to be thought as opposed to memorization which we have built in, teaching exploration is like a spark that starts a positive feedback loop since the proccess of exploration aleays teaches you more about exploration. So, how does one teach "exploration". how does one start the spark?
3) Most musicians fail to understand the importance of music to human intelligence. Yeah they say mozart makes you smarter (i used to listen to prokofiev and chopin not mozart unfort...
), but that sounds like a slogan. but is it???
I teach Synthesis at a collage here in Tel aviv for several years now. I have seen all kinds of people. i can tell you one thing: People who play musical instruments, have a 1000% better performance in learning new concepts. and I'm talking about physics, history, aesthetics (especially!), attention to detail and so on. In short music makes people more intelligent. and to me the evidence walks into the classroom twice a week
. why is that?
4) Music promotes exploration. why to people play instruments? why do people look for new music. this is maybe one of the most common exploration forms today (for sure it is on the internet) people always find new and fascinating ways to find and categorize new music! I honestly that the more music there is in the world, the better people will do. Music teaches people to explore their instrument, be different, music is always about exploration of some "invisible space" and using it to create new worlds. listening to music is exploring those made worlds. so what's the simple conclusion?
Make music, Teach music. and when you teach, teach how to explore. and when you make music, your music will do the rest
p.s.
and when i say music, i mean art not entertainment.
1) What does making the world a better place mean? some things make the world for some, and while rarely thought about makes it worse for others. This is such a complex matter, that most people just stop thinking and use their gut to tell them what is good. Usually their gut instincts will be based on morals that might clash with other peoples morals, and one has to think about that (which makes that whole thing yet another facet of a mans moral stand)
2) After much debate i have come to the conclusion that knowledge is what people need most, to keep up with this crazy race called life. Knowledge can be earned in several ways. Usually it is either by memorization, or by exploration. The memorization approach (which is what is used in 99% of the schools) is inefficient, since it teaches only one subject, and needs a teacher to be present along 100% of the way. Exploration however, is much more efficient since while you learn one subject you learn how to tackle general problems and essentially learn how to explore. The problem with exploration, is that it needs to be thought as opposed to memorization which we have built in, teaching exploration is like a spark that starts a positive feedback loop since the proccess of exploration aleays teaches you more about exploration. So, how does one teach "exploration". how does one start the spark?
3) Most musicians fail to understand the importance of music to human intelligence. Yeah they say mozart makes you smarter (i used to listen to prokofiev and chopin not mozart unfort...

I teach Synthesis at a collage here in Tel aviv for several years now. I have seen all kinds of people. i can tell you one thing: People who play musical instruments, have a 1000% better performance in learning new concepts. and I'm talking about physics, history, aesthetics (especially!), attention to detail and so on. In short music makes people more intelligent. and to me the evidence walks into the classroom twice a week

4) Music promotes exploration. why to people play instruments? why do people look for new music. this is maybe one of the most common exploration forms today (for sure it is on the internet) people always find new and fascinating ways to find and categorize new music! I honestly that the more music there is in the world, the better people will do. Music teaches people to explore their instrument, be different, music is always about exploration of some "invisible space" and using it to create new worlds. listening to music is exploring those made worlds. so what's the simple conclusion?
Make music, Teach music. and when you teach, teach how to explore. and when you make music, your music will do the rest

p.s.
and when i say music, i mean art not entertainment.
Re: Making the world a better place
This is really interesting.
And I'd really like to discuss this topic more than I did.
But I can't.
I'm steps behind.
Just, I'm going down an age of my life in which I feel anyway like loosing my musical identity. I often don't recognize myself in the things I play, or, better, inside my music I don't recognize what I'd like to hear.
And I'm gonna lose my skill this way. It's like my musical consciousness and taste have gone ahead my player, composer and arranger level.
Messages and feelings toward the direction of a better world are ahead this.
And now I'd like to talk about the idea of a better world but...
Everyone have it's own idea; nevertheless mine is confused as well.
It should end talking about population growth, more or less susteinable development models, justice, richness and poverty, politics that often is only demagogy and so on
And I'd really like to discuss this topic more than I did.
But I can't.
I'm steps behind.
Just, I'm going down an age of my life in which I feel anyway like loosing my musical identity. I often don't recognize myself in the things I play, or, better, inside my music I don't recognize what I'd like to hear.
And I'm gonna lose my skill this way. It's like my musical consciousness and taste have gone ahead my player, composer and arranger level.
Messages and feelings toward the direction of a better world are ahead this.
And now I'd like to talk about the idea of a better world but...
Everyone have it's own idea; nevertheless mine is confused as well.
It should end talking about population growth, more or less susteinable development models, justice, richness and poverty, politics that often is only demagogy and so on
Re: Making the world a better place
If humidity reaches 100 % - are you going to drown?
"Heaven is there where hell is and heaven is not on earth!"
Re: Making the world a better place
If I won't reach the boat I can just drown or float (like a turd)
Sorry I was going kind of depressed.
Sorry I was going kind of depressed.

Re: Making the world a better place
Do you think the rime might be good for hiphop?Cochise wrote:If I won't reach the boat I can just drown or float
Re: Making the world a better place
The world DOES NEED to be a better place.
I've just made a google search for "mafia and dna warfare"(though I'm not sure I'm able to distinguish mafia style from other diverted power intimidatory style since the rotten always tend to hide itself).
The first link is to this page.
http://tbohiphop.net/dna-dj-rob-get-on- ... ll-mjg/23/
I'm sleepy now, but..wtf does it means?
I've just made a google search for "mafia and dna warfare"(though I'm not sure I'm able to distinguish mafia style from other diverted power intimidatory style since the rotten always tend to hide itself).
The first link is to this page.
http://tbohiphop.net/dna-dj-rob-get-on- ... ll-mjg/23/
I'm sleepy now, but..wtf does it means?
- kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
Re: Making the world a better place
I agree with Red..
What does it mean to make the world a better place? Well, I was pretty much focusing on offering what I could offer, not necessarily offer what was needed. (which sort of falls into the personal moral trap red talks about) But it does relate to red's other point about music and intelligence.
Intelligence is largely lacking, as it has become more apparent to me. Not to say that I have superior intelligence or anything like that, but it is obvious that many people lack the facilities to become more intelligent, make intelligent choices, etc. Red points out it's the spark of interest, or motivation. Well, that is precisely what I want to show through music, or anything I produce. Intellectual curiosity, and the drive to follow it through is perhaps a base line.
Too many people, I think, just give up on thinking. "thinking", although it has become the prime product in capitalism, is also the prime inefficiency, and too many people try to cut down on it as much as possible. It can be inefficient, and it can also be a liability. I see it in business situations all the time. Why think when someone else has thought it out for you? Wrong. The path to a solution is not always one path. The beaten path may not be the best path. Heck, the beaten path might not be the most fun path. We will never find out if we don't take the first step. I hate the saying "if it ain't broke".. well, if it ain't broke, but you want to "fix" it, you sit there and think up some thing better and frickin' build it.
I think this is one hell of a concept to communicate in audio form.. still not sure how to do it. But it is true that music has an effect on intelligence. (paper I read on a comparison between people who took music lessons as kids vs those who didn't) Of course, I won't take all the stats at face value, but at the very least, music does make you think, and use your brain. And going back to the tendency to let the brain slack off... well, there are "please switch off your brains" music, which I think is fine and needs to exist for stress relief, and there's "listen to this song a bunch of times 'till you learn it" type of music.
I dunno, I just think that apart from singing about love and peace (which again, is important), there is a lot more we can do through the semiotics of music that can urge more thinking... and ultimately become an educational, life improving experience. I know it's hard, but I just hope I can do something like that.
What does it mean to make the world a better place? Well, I was pretty much focusing on offering what I could offer, not necessarily offer what was needed. (which sort of falls into the personal moral trap red talks about) But it does relate to red's other point about music and intelligence.
Intelligence is largely lacking, as it has become more apparent to me. Not to say that I have superior intelligence or anything like that, but it is obvious that many people lack the facilities to become more intelligent, make intelligent choices, etc. Red points out it's the spark of interest, or motivation. Well, that is precisely what I want to show through music, or anything I produce. Intellectual curiosity, and the drive to follow it through is perhaps a base line.
Too many people, I think, just give up on thinking. "thinking", although it has become the prime product in capitalism, is also the prime inefficiency, and too many people try to cut down on it as much as possible. It can be inefficient, and it can also be a liability. I see it in business situations all the time. Why think when someone else has thought it out for you? Wrong. The path to a solution is not always one path. The beaten path may not be the best path. Heck, the beaten path might not be the most fun path. We will never find out if we don't take the first step. I hate the saying "if it ain't broke".. well, if it ain't broke, but you want to "fix" it, you sit there and think up some thing better and frickin' build it.
I think this is one hell of a concept to communicate in audio form.. still not sure how to do it. But it is true that music has an effect on intelligence. (paper I read on a comparison between people who took music lessons as kids vs those who didn't) Of course, I won't take all the stats at face value, but at the very least, music does make you think, and use your brain. And going back to the tendency to let the brain slack off... well, there are "please switch off your brains" music, which I think is fine and needs to exist for stress relief, and there's "listen to this song a bunch of times 'till you learn it" type of music.
I dunno, I just think that apart from singing about love and peace (which again, is important), there is a lot more we can do through the semiotics of music that can urge more thinking... and ultimately become an educational, life improving experience. I know it's hard, but I just hope I can do something like that.
Re: Making the world a better place
well, you'll definitely be at odds with your overlords. the last thing they want is people thinking, especially for themselves.... 

Re: Making the world a better place
Yes you are allowed to kill and eat animals, but gathering plants and smoking them is a no go.
"Heaven is there where hell is and heaven is not on earth!"
Re: Making the world a better place
Ok, trying to leave apart my personal "cage".
A well defined target as making the world a better place by music involves messages in the lyrics, unless the meaning of "a better world" is intended as more pleasant at sensorial level...
and at emotional level inside the not too defined feelings area the music can induce.
A well defined target as making the world a better place by music involves messages in the lyrics, unless the meaning of "a better world" is intended as more pleasant at sensorial level...
and at emotional level inside the not too defined feelings area the music can induce.
Last edited by Cochise on Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Making the world a better place
Words are not music. I wish people would stop confusing the two. Most songs don't even qualify as half-assed poetry. It's funny how setting any lame words to music somehow gives them a deeper meaning to people. Bullshit!
Re: Making the world a better place
The message in the bottle can get a concrete meaning following lines probably started with troubadours and trouvères, or can be the bottle itself... (:D this anyway reminds me Andy Warhol)
Re: Making the world a better place
Right on Ken! 
Basicaly i think songs, are a form of combined media and are not pure music. while songs are nice and everything (cant stand em),
pure music has the power of abstractness. you recognize patterns and you need to imagine a context for those patterns. something that expands imagination, and helps thinking.
songs on the other hand are way more direct, and they (try to) tell you what to think.
in my opinion, effects of guys like bob dylan are more politic, and fashion related, as opposed to the effect of bach which is more abstract, and more about recognizing complex patterns.
maybe if more people could recognize complex patterns, the world wouldn't be in such a mess now
http://fora.tv/2007/10/21/Oliver_Sacks_Musicophilia

Basicaly i think songs, are a form of combined media and are not pure music. while songs are nice and everything (cant stand em),
pure music has the power of abstractness. you recognize patterns and you need to imagine a context for those patterns. something that expands imagination, and helps thinking.
songs on the other hand are way more direct, and they (try to) tell you what to think.
in my opinion, effects of guys like bob dylan are more politic, and fashion related, as opposed to the effect of bach which is more abstract, and more about recognizing complex patterns.
maybe if more people could recognize complex patterns, the world wouldn't be in such a mess now

http://fora.tv/2007/10/21/Oliver_Sacks_Musicophilia
- kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
Re: Making the world a better place
As much as I'd like to say as an idealist... "the only overlords are the ones we create in our minds"... the overlords certainly do exist, perhaps not a specific group with a name, but perhaps a collective of different groups with like minds. (to conquer and control)garyb wrote:well, you'll definitely be at odds with your overlords. the last thing they want is people thinking, especially for themselves....
But, at any given time in history, there is a constant struggle, that plants seed to keep the struggle going. And I guess as humble mortals, we can only hope to play a small part in the process. Ah, that's one important aspect.. to feel the "whole", and not just the context right infront of you. Again, similar to musical structure, fractals, or even programming. (just a simple for loop or recursion) Bleh, I do get told time and time again that I'm a metaphorical thinker that finds structural similarities in conceptually unconnected places. Guess growing up in a tri-cultural background does do things to the mind.
I think the importance is that all musicians... well, those who consider themselves as artists at least, to have something to put back into the system. Not just fun and games if you've been doing it for more than a decade. Seems there's just too much stuff out there that's narcistic, self centered, and business oriented. Not to say it can't accomplish those things while still having a positive impact on society, but usually the core of why someone creates what he creates is evident in the result. And it can be heard quite clearly.
Re: Making the world a better place
yes, true.
Re: Making the world a better place
ReD_MuZe wrote: maybe if more people could recognize complex patterns, the world wouldn't be in such a mess now
How can music by itself teach to recognize complex patterns for people haven't intellectual growth between their primary aims?stardust wrote:There is still an industry that earns money from consumers without delivering. Consumers just expect a musical drug.
Gradually evolving patterns?

For sure this phrase highly resonates with thoughts having the same wavelenght inside me.kensuguru wrote:As much as I'd like to say as an idealist..."the only overlords are the ones we create in our minds"
Tough, what I can see in the society looks like lot of people strongly need (and also WANT, with a sort of reverence) such overlords.
Re: Making the world a better place
if we create them in our minds(which i'm good with), that's still a little bit irrelevant to the reality of the created demons which must be exorcised, unless it's to point out that the solution is also in our minds....
yes, many love and revere their overlords, but that's only conditioning and the "stockholm syndrome".
yes, many love and revere their overlords, but that's only conditioning and the "stockholm syndrome".
Re: Making the world a better place
Saw this DVD last week, Henri Rollins Uncut from Israel.
Knowing Rollins, giving raw sharp opinions, I thought "what minefield is he walking into!" I've been to Israel quite a few times myself, I remember a couple euhm vivid discussions. So while watching his monologue, initially I found him a bit naive at the situation, but he grew stronger. Finally he hit me with his closing words: "If your kids ask you later, 'how did we get into this fncked up situation', tell them it's because you just didn't fix it!"
In Israel the situation is obviously more pronounced, but I guess this goes as good advise for everyone everywhere!
No one can blame the mess on another - blaming doesn't solve anything. Grabbing the bull by it's horns and inspiring others into doing the same is the only way. Stop being ignorant. Think, and act accordingly. You know the clichees.
Now what are you gonna do about it? I think no-one can tell for another, each person is different in different situations. But with a bit of reflection, I'm sure most people can come up with something, on how to assist and maybe inspire individuals or, more generally, the community. A bit like people complaining about politicians. How can you expect to vote for someone worthy if you don't even know who's done what previously? Being informed is essential, and it doesn't come automatically: it requires endured interest and engagement.
Knowing Rollins, giving raw sharp opinions, I thought "what minefield is he walking into!" I've been to Israel quite a few times myself, I remember a couple euhm vivid discussions. So while watching his monologue, initially I found him a bit naive at the situation, but he grew stronger. Finally he hit me with his closing words: "If your kids ask you later, 'how did we get into this fncked up situation', tell them it's because you just didn't fix it!"
In Israel the situation is obviously more pronounced, but I guess this goes as good advise for everyone everywhere!
No one can blame the mess on another - blaming doesn't solve anything. Grabbing the bull by it's horns and inspiring others into doing the same is the only way. Stop being ignorant. Think, and act accordingly. You know the clichees.
Now what are you gonna do about it? I think no-one can tell for another, each person is different in different situations. But with a bit of reflection, I'm sure most people can come up with something, on how to assist and maybe inspire individuals or, more generally, the community. A bit like people complaining about politicians. How can you expect to vote for someone worthy if you don't even know who's done what previously? Being informed is essential, and it doesn't come automatically: it requires endured interest and engagement.
more has been done with less
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio