PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

Charlton Heston should be proud of the thread here, where all opinions are welcomed.

Maybe this fall when I go to the Ruby Mountains for Elk season I will use a crossbow, and bring my 600 pound Elk down the mountain in a hybrid miniature vehicle, and listen to mp3's I make of VST synths.

Fuck that shit,....I will use my Remington 700, drive the Elk down in my Pick-Up truck w/ the gun rack, and listen to Scope DSP synths instead.

garyb wrote:the state CAN NOT assure safety.

No, Walmart can though.

garyb wrote:rights are not a system. they are absolute.

This is plain wrong, under all the aspects, historical, juridical, philosophical.

Rights are such only because there is a conventional power which assures they are respected, history demonstrates how variable have the rights been and how they are. Some people have rights that other people don't. You "have" more rights than a child from Africa, that's awful but real.
On the juridical side, it's the system that decides if you have them or not. In China there is no free speech, you go to jail if you diffuse "dangerous" internet informations, we might cry like as much as we want, but all will go to the olympics making clear that the world is fine with that, the Chinese don't have that right. They don't "have" some rights.
Also in our societies the rights didn't come from graceful concessions but because the game of social forces "invented" them. Thus, as long as those rights are formalized in a law, they are real, otherwise they aren't. You need a conventional power, a "society" to make them real. And the rules of these societies are different around the world, and so are the rights.

Sorry, Gary, sometimes you talk like you forget the system you are living in.

The proof of what I say is that the ultimate defenders of the right to carry arms point to the constitutional amendment that states so. Practically a piece of paper, a "system",where many other things are written too and that has to be taken as a whole.

the € have become 0,04.

no, rights are mine whether they are respected or not.

when my rights are disrespected either by deed or by law, then a criminal act has occured.

the paper merely was an acknowledgement of that truth. scumsucking power mongers always like to say that our rights come from their magnanimous hearts and generous systems, but they are liars.

the system can't protect me, nor will it "gaurantee" my rights. these things aren't subjective, these things have been USURPED and now we are supposed to be thankful for what is given.

btw-many africans are much more free than i am, regardless of what their governments may think. having comfort and nice stuff is not freedom(it's not necessarily bad, but it's not freedom).

a man's rights don't come from the state. a man's right to life and liberty come from creation itself and if you will indulge me, from the creator. this is the point of the first admendments to the us constitution. the open acknowledgement that the state is not all was made at the point of a gun. after the war for independance, the common folk who had been talked into fighting for their freedom by the bankers and businessmen who wished to break free of the crown, wouldn't settle for less after so many had shed blood for their independance. those commoners didn't need a government, the businessmen did, so compromise was made grudgingly. safegaurds were put into place because it was well known then as now, that those in charge usually abuse their power. it was put in black and white that the government was only by the acceptance of the governed, who had the right to kill those who abused the public trust, and so the second amendment was written. these guys have been working to break down and nullify the agreement because they want ultimate control, psychopaths and bluebloods have that disease, but they know that they're really no better than anyone else deep down inside. the guys in charge are not better or more important than us. if they have guns to defend themselves from the rabble, then the rabble needs guns to defend against the vampires. if criminals have guns to take advantage of good people, then they deserve it when a good person ventilates them.

i still stand by what i posted, just that the formatting came out wrong. Anyway what i was saying was that even taking into account the things you say about self defence etc. - more people die by guns in the USA than any other country and more suicides by gun occur. This is due to the fact that (shock, horror) the availability of guns in the USA is almost unrestricted (when you can buy a gun at Walmart you know something's gone wrong with your society). In the UK we would be freaked if i could pop down to your local Tescos and buy a weapon.

Even if every homicide in that statistic was self defence (it won't be) how do you explain away the high rate of suicides? Are there more depressed people in the USA or is it that a gun makes it easier to do on a whim?

Also all the children that find guns and kill themselves accidently or teenagers that take their parents' gun to school to kill their schoolmates for not understanding them.

Or the people who get killed by their own hand weapon. Just recently i saw a cheesy "USA Cop Videos"-style programme that had a guy with a knife stab the security guard of a shop then steal the guard's gun, shot the guard and then held the shopkeeper at gunpoint. None of this possible if the legal gun hadn't been there.

Believe what you will gary, but the USA is the only place that has your mentality because you're indoctrinated that way. In Europe no-one tells us we have a right to guns from birth so consequently when we see a gun, we see it for what it is.

So is it legal to carry a concealed knife in the USA? It's a much less lethal weapon than a gun and surely the "right to bear arms" doesn't specify the arms you can use. i think you should take to carrying a Ninja sword gary and when the police pull you over remind them of the Consitution

Rights don't exist outside of a society, they are concepts.

I have the right to live in a society in which some insane, drunk or angry person can't whip out a gun and shoot me. I have the right to walk in a forest and not be accidentally shot by a hunter. Children have the right to live in a house with no guns that they find and play with and end up dead.

You can't control what people do with their guns because people are morons.

I commend Washington D.C. for banning guns since 1976. Regardless of what you think your rights are, you will be arrested if you are found to be in possession of a gun there. Unfortunately, it is all too easy to get a gun in neighboring Virginia and Maryland which allow the sale of lethal these deadly devices..

You said you are in favor of nobody having guns. We have to start somewhere and that is from the ground up. The people to fear are us, not the government (at least in our own country). You are never going to shoot a police or military person and you know it.

Hunters are actually safer than hand gun owners. The hand gun also can be concealed. If someone around me has a gun, I want to know about it.

Perhaps I will live in Europe one day. It seems so much more advanced than we are.

The problem is everyone here keeps thinking our way is better so I don't think there will be much progress in the near future.

that's the difference between an american who understands what "freedom" is about and the rest of the world. everyone else is a subject. the american is a soveriegn and, if he understands what that means, he expects to be treated as such. unfortunately, government's promises of protection have made the average american confused and once more, enslaved just like his european brethren. most americans are afraid of being soveriegn and they're looking for someone to look up to and take orders from, just like in the rest of the world. this is the result of cultivation and indoctrination. power needs sheep to herd. the UN and it's mad power mongers' worst nightmare is 61/2 billion independant free humans.....

this is not a mono-culture here in america, there is a lot of friction between competing cultures and the chances of violence are higher here than anywhere else, for that reason(most are hesitant to commit violence within the clan). the police are out of control in that they panic when they see a weapon. the fact that i can't shoot an assailant in my own home is disgusting. the fact that i can't defend myself from an assailant anywhere else, but must hope that an "authority" will come down from on high is sheer insanity. one thing studies show which is unarguable, when people are allowed to carry and use concealed firearms, crime goes down significantly. most gun owners are law abiding and responsible. there are MILLIONS of guns in the usa and relatively few deaths. alchohol and automobiles are far more abused and because of abuse, deadly.

i'm not saying that i WANT to carry a gun, or that i DO carry a gun, but it is my right, whether you like it or not, and further, no authority on earth can keep me or anyone else from killing any of you if so inclined. stop putting your faith in those who only wish to control you, they can't protect you. they can only clean up and investigate after.

as for the second amendment not specifying what arms, well it does say this: the right to bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed.

as to let he who needs a gun apply for a permit, everyone who feels he needs to keep one for protection, needs a gun, barring those who are too irresponsible to handle such a grave and powerful device. in other words, any healthy human has the right.

if you have a good way of getting rid of ALL guns, legal and illegal, official and private, then that's a good idea. until then, to paraphrase the man that the X4L posted about, you can have mine when you pry it from my cold dead hands. this is stated as a matter of principle first.

rights are not subjective concepts granted by the state! to say so is TREASON against HUMANITY! the state is an institution established as a promise to the people it serves, who endow the state with their own power to serve the common purpose, although the twisted inbred f*@ks who manage to sit at the top of these structures through lies and greed would sell it as the other way around. they'd like you to think that it's all subjective and that your "privileges" flow from their generosity and largess. what a lie and what a bunch of toadies that repeat the lie! here's the saddest part of the athiest world. without God to have made all men for His inscrutable purposes, which makes all men valuable and equal, we are just what some imaginary system based on power says we are. SOCIETY IS THE ARTIFICIAL REALITY. as in the Matrix, it appears to be real, but it's NOT real life...society is not the true measure of a man's worth, his life's worth, nor is it the ultimate arbiter of his rights, although it is often the usurper of his worth, life and rights.

Regardless of what you think your rights are, as a citizen of a country, you are required to obey the laws. If you break the law and you are caught, you will be punished. What you believe your rights are doesn't really matter. It is quite esoteric.

garyb wrote:that's the difference between an american who understands what "freedom" is about and the rest of the world.

How foolish of me, i was forgetting the rest of us are stupid for not carrying guns. Carry on.

garyb wrote: there are MILLIONS of guns in the usa and relatively few deaths.

But still relatively more deaths than countries that don't have guns readily available. i can count the number of accidental deaths by three year olds in the UK by finding a gun in a closet on no hands - i can't think of one reported incident. i'm sure i would remember it. i live in a country where if a police officer gets shot it still makes front page news, rather than a one inch column on the bottom of page 12. And of course this all happens and our police still do not routinely carry guns.

no Mr. A, your police go on a train and execute an innocent man to create fear and headlines. if 75% of the people on that train are armed, black ops like that are much less likely. they walked up to that man and blew his head off, just murdered him in cold blood and threatened the witnesses to shut up and stay down and then came up with cockamamee excuses about him running(which he didn't) and wearing a heavy coat(which he wasn't). if they did the right thing, there'd be no need to lie about it, but they needed to make you think you needed protection.

but before you finish strawmanning and ad homineming me, i never said anyone SHOULD carry a weapon. i said a person shouldn't have his right to a weapon infringed, which is quite different.

when i was a child, i tried to help clean the bathtub, but i used the wrong chemicals. i was too young to handle such things and i used drano(lye for opening clogged drains)instead of cleaner. when it began to burn like hell, i put my hands in my mouth and had to go to the emergency room at the local hospital. since children might get a hold of this dangerous chemical, maybe we should ban it!!??

it's amazing how much hate and fear just the thought of a gun will bring, but your kitchen knife, which is the MAIN weapon of passion in the world and the MAIN weapon of mayhem everywhere elicites no such response. conditioning anyone?

braincell wrote:Regardless of what you think your rights are, as a citizen of a country, you are required to obey the laws. If you break the law and you are caught, you will be punished. What you believe your rights are doesn't really matter. It is quite esoteric.

spoken like a true fan of tyrranny.

yep, tyrants and evil rulers will disrespect people's rights. that's why they're called bad guys.

once more though, that doesn't change what my rights are, it just means that they've been taken from me illegally.

also, i have already qualified the person with this right as responsible and law abiding. not all laws are legal however. there is the law of the land, which is often corrupt and there is common law, which is the basis for laws in general. one basic tenet of common law is that a man has the right to defend himself.

If a crazy man was chasing you would you rather he have a knife or a gun?

Guns don't serve any purpose other than to kill people or to threaten to kill people.
Cleaning fluids and kitchen knives have a useful purpose.

We have modern ways to defend yourself such as a taser gun or mace. You don't want blood on your hands do you?

Bro, tase him and run away. That's all you need to do. There is no need for lethal violence.

"as for the second amendment not specifying what arms, well it does say this: the right to bear arms SHALL NOT be infringed. "

from Wiki:

"The Oxford English Dictionary defines the term to bear arms as: "to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight," dating to about the year 1330. And, defines the term to bear arms against as: "to be engaged in hostilities with." dating the usage back to about the year 1000 with the epic poem Beowulf.[9]"

"By legal and other channels, the Latin "arma ferre" entered deeply into the European language of war. Bearing arms is such a synonym for waging war that Shakespeare can call a just war " 'justborne arms" and a civil war "self-borne arms." Even outside the special phrase "bear arms," much of the noun's use echoes Latin phrases: to be under arms (sub armis), the call to arms (ad arma), to follow arms (arma sequi), to take arms (arma capere), to lay down arms (arma pœnere). "Arms" is a profession that one brother chooses the way another choose law or the church. An issue undergoes the arbitrament of arms." ... "One does not bear arms against a rabbit...".[3]"

braincell wrote:If a crazy man was chasing you would you rather he have a knife or a gun?

Guns don't serve any purpose other than to kill people or to threaten to kill people.
Cleaning fluids and kitchen knives have a useful purpose.

We have modern ways to defend yourself such as a taser gun or mace. You don't want blood on your hands do you?

Bro, tase him and run away. That's all you need to do. There is no need for lethal violence.

Tase him and run away and pray he'll forget about your face or he'll come back with 15 of his mates and kick the s**t out of you.

stardust wrote: Maybe things like the gun are just an idolized substitute and sublimation for freedom that seems not to take place in democratic elections and equal opportunities.
The evil elites have their tricks to make you believe in your freedom and souvereignty....

Freud would probably say that it's some kind of representation of the falus and that it has something to do with the Edipo complex..
Following this analysis, some gun-carriers could then be assimilated to d*ck-head mother-f***ers

braincell wrote:If a crazy man was chasing you would you rather he have a knife or a gun?
...
Bro, tase him and run away. That's all you need to do. There is no need for lethal violence.

well, all I can say is that if someone trespasses a certain border threatening my life... then the only thing that would keep me away from pulling the trigger is upcoming trouble with the authorities, not the s*cker's brain spilled over the place.

possibly not the politically correct way of thinking, but that's how it is - and that's me... not even bashing a fly in the room - I'll catch it and put it out of the window.
with ticks and mosquitos it's a bit different, tho

cheers, Tom

First of all, Gary, How would you think the situation would have changed if, say, 75% of the people on the mentioned train were armed? A crammed wagon panicing with guns isnt exactly a nice scenario, and wouldnt result in LESS deaths, that i am pretty sure of.

My "Problem" is clearly that i cant put myself in your mindset, it is way too far from the reality we live in here across the pond. i live in a society where you actually react if you see an armed person, be it a police officer (we have unarmed police here, they need to get a special permission to be armed if the situation demands it) or a soldier. You never see an armed soldier here outside the bases. Sure we have a big hunting community, but there are heavy restrictions as to how many guns a hunter can have for each use, and ofcourse every weapon has to be locked up. Handguns are only allowed for target shooting, and there are heavy restrictions on obtaining one (dont remember them exactly, but i can assure you it takes more than a year from when you joined the "shooting club" (sorry my limited english)).

Our reserve forces has their weapons at home, but the most vital part of the gun is sored at the bases, rendering it unusable for suicide, accidents and killings.

My point is, having a gun laying around DOES CAUSE MORE DEATHS. period. Crime might go down, but people arguing they should be allowed to shoot a person for stealing their car/walking in their garden/stealing their TV is just to illustrate how sick a society has become. Almost Heaven?