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The point of the documentary is that when we look at the stars, we are looking back in time since it takes a while for light to reach us. By looking behind the the other galaxies, we are seeing further back in time. In fact, as amazing as it seems, we can now see within 400,000 years of the start of the universe.

or at least, so it seems.

i find this stuff fascinating as well!

woops I posted the wrong link! here it is:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=2

the good thing on science is that it immediately will agree that it can't say anything beyond the scientificly defined borders.
Findings could bring up existential questions, or could help defining them, which is already extremely interesting, but real answers belong to another domain.
principally you can't fool science, that's a nice thing (tho you can make mistakes)

Science is always advancing by testing new theories. If there is no way to test a theory, it doesn't have much value to science. An example is string theory which is starting to lose favor. It's more interesting and fun to be able to disprove or prove theories. Some ideas people have about the way things work are just so ridiculous that they don't even warrant discussion in a genuine scientific forum in my opinion.

astroman wrote: There is stuff beyond physics I have experienced myself - and I swear I have not been on drugs when those events happened
cheers, Tom

Oh, the infamous occasional acid flashback?

braincell wrote:... In fact, as amazing as it seems, we can now see within 400,000 years of the start of the universe.

yes, but we can 'only' see ...
in the BBC link you posted one of the scientists (sorry, forgot her name) made exactly my point... other forms of 'existence' parallel to our own (regular) perceiption might well exist and traces of them even be 'discovered' by the experiment.
This kind of 'scientific' attitude has my full support, while those who claim '...we cannot put it into a probe, so it cannot be...' remind me on the catholic church during the time of the spanish inquisition at best...

Astrology has a tradition as an exact science of pure observation over thousands of years - and it's a valid approach if that's all you have. It has been nothing else but observation of patterns in the sky and find a corelation to observations on earth - kind of applied statistics.
Call it primitive, but didn't people build pyramids with even less primitive tools a few thousand years back

Some methods of Tibetian and Chinese medicine are known to be very precise and effective, but cannot be verified by 'scientific tools' at all.

Ants can build huge factories with perfectly balanced climate inside, yet they completely lack a 'brain' or whatever we might need for a similiar task.
A spider can do a huge geometric object (it's web), though it's almost completely blind.
These creatures are perfectly well organized in their (from our point of 'view') little worlds - but they cannot 'perceive' our own presence in the same way, even though we're so close to them.

Imho you'd be really stupid to restrict this type of 'view' as valid only into one direction. It would put us right on top of creation which we surely aren't
I wouldn't want to convince anyone about the relevance of astrology (let alone the newspaper and career rubbish), but there may be more about it than expected.

cheers, Tom

The Egyptians used math and physics, and as for the types of faith healing you mentioned, it is now well documented that there is a very strong placebo effect which causes the human brain to produce real drugs. Various ceremonies with costumes, dancing and psychoactive drugs could enhance this effect.

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2007/05/18

I don't think astrology holds any credibility. It is interesting though that astrology led to astronomy.

petal wrote:

astroman wrote: There is stuff beyond physics I have experienced myself - and I swear I have not been on drugs when those events happened
cheers, Tom

Oh, the infamous occasional acid flashback?

well, I wish it would have been...
it has do with the way someone felt the dying of a close relative over distance and alike. Bewildering experiences.

cheers, Tom

braincell wrote:...it is now well documented that there is a very strong placebo effect which causes the human brain to produce real drugs. ...

you wouldn't want to cause this a 'placebo' wouldn't you ?
if the body is capable to produce just the right drug by mental capability alone it drives pharmacy ad absurdum

cheers, Tom

braincell wrote:woops I posted the wrong link! here it is:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... &plindex=2

That is awesome! If only more people would watch it this world would be a better place.

This reminds me of the Matrix movie. Remember how Neo viewed the world after he came back to life? It was the real, encoded Matrix of ones and zeros.




Now try to look at any object in your room, maybe a table or chair. You may think, well this chair is made of metal and this table is made of wood so they are different. They are not! Fundamentaly at the atomic level, they are the same. The material properties are dictated by the number of electrons, protons and neutrons in an atom. This is the real world "Matrix" made of atoms.



Everything is made of electrons, protons and neutrons and held together by the strong nuclear force. If this force would have been just a little weaker, the protons and neutrons would not have stuck together and all matter would not have come into existence.
Now look at your hand! Can you imagine that it is made of atoms and there are billions of electrons orbiting the nuclei of billions of atoms?

Yes,

I hope they find the missing parts. It always puzzled me how some particles can have no mass. I'm not very scientifically minded but it makes more sense after viewing the BBC documentary.

Something seems off in your translation but if you are saying there is a placebo effect for legitimate drugs, this is true as was pointed out in the radiolab show.

astroman wrote:

braincell wrote:...it is now well documented that there is a very strong placebo effect which causes the human brain to produce real drugs. ...

you wouldn't want to cause this a 'placebo' wouldn't you ?
if the body is capable to produce just the right drug by mental capability alone it drives pharmacy ad absurdum

cheers, Tom

braincell wrote: It always puzzled me how some particles can have no mass.

Me too!
But that's not all! What I find most puzzling is the way all nuclear forces work. All protons and neutrons are made of 3 different types quarks. These quarks are held together by the weak nuclear force mediated by particles called gluons. So when two quarks are in proximity to each other, one quark creates out of nothing and for a very small period of time a gluon and sends it to the other quark and viceversa. This exchange of gluons constitutes the weak nuclear force. The electromagnetic force is mediated by particles called bosons which can also be photons.

Hi,

Well another one:

Taken that time doesn't have effect at particle level, all particles will be there at the end of the universe ... and was there at the beginning, so Big Bang was a transitional state over which we cannot see ... Then what was there before!

By the way a theory is a model of reallity ... but not reality. Even if the distance to reallity is getting closer, it will always be a limited perception of it.

cheers

Michel

Carl Sagan explains a 4th dimension:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KT4M7kiSw
Sagan on astrology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA

Check out his famous Cosmos series, if you can get your hands on it.
A bit more advanced, for the abstract thinkers amongst us:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory - string theory is the first to nicely link the immense (galactic) to the tiny (sub-atomic)...

String theory is on the way out unless there is some evidence that it exists soon.

Read "Problems and controversy" at the bottom of the wikipedia entry on string theory.

at0m wrote:Carl Sagan explains a 4th dimension:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KT4M7kiSw
Sagan on astrology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iunr4B4wfDA

Check out his famous Cosmos series, if you can get your hands on it.
A bit more advanced, for the abstract thinkers amongst us:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory - string theory is the first to nicely link the immense (galactic) to the tiny (sub-atomic)...

Hi,

Eisenberg principle find its root in the statistical nature of the model used in quantum physics.

We should never forget the validity domain of a model. Vulgarization of science often lead this phenomenum (thinking about superstring theory!).


cheers

Michel

thanks for the link braincell, that clip is brilliant. it's funny to hear at the beginning there is a slight possibility they could create a black hole that would suck the earth into oblivion leaving a giant sign that reads DOH! in empty space