PlanetZ forums - scopeusers.com

the midi timing on the virtual scope midi sources is rock solid from my experience.

I can honestly say that my akai sampler had a much worse timing with multiple midi channels than the creamware cards.

I`ve never experienced any problems with scope synths adressed by the scope sequencer source.

Have you disabled midi thorugh in cubase to avoid midi loops, which may cause lags too?

Well, when there is a problem in the midi configuration, with the sequencer or the OS, the midi timing errors are big enough to can hear them without problem, simply the timing doesn´t fit and is much clear.
When all the midi setup is ok, the midi jitter is not much noticecable. You can play your keyboard, hear it, and feel satisfied with the result. That doesn´t mean that the timing error doesn´t exist. it maybe be small enough and maybe if your system is fast, maybe you would need to make a quite big zoom to measure the errors, usually the variation maybe be only some ms, maybe 4 to 8 ms. But there is not always a 4ms, or a 8ms, it varies, is a random unprecision. Maybe you can hear the recorded track as fine. But if you record the audio, you´ll like better. If you have some ability with the keyboard, will feel better with audio.
I have made the same test with the sts sampler. Look, I used audio waves instead midi events.
I sent the audio output to a trigger.(audio to midi). Toke that midi to STS input, and sent the STS audio output through Asio to the sequencer.
So it was: audio to midi. Midi to STS, then audio again.
The result is that there is no measurable variation. 0 ms, or something unmeasurable.
Maybe the result of 4-6 ms of midi jitter is can be good. 0 Ms is just perfect.
I would like any of you tell me, if the problem is Xp, or the sequencer, just tell me how midi time clock works, for example in Linux. Tell me about the technical way that the "timing" is registered on any computer, and on any sequencer. Till what I now, midi has not a clock it self like digital audio has. It just uses the pc internal clock, or cloks as reference of the time an even came up. And whaever the driver, OS, or sequencer are there, at my understanding, is not good techical way to work, and so unpresisions maybe occur, much noticecable, low noticecable, or very low noticecable, but not perfect. [/quote]

I can honestly say that my akai sampler had a much worse timing with multiple midi channels than the creamware cards.

I`ve never experienced any problems with scope synths adressed by the scope sequencer source.

I believe that. We not disagree. Internal Midi of the Scope is fine. Synths and STS are all fine. I´m just telling about the traveling, frome the physical midi input, to the sequencer, and from the sequencer to the midi output.

I don't have Cubase or any other sequencer, that stuff is way too complicated for me...
(as a sidenote) I may infact end with a medium version of SAW-Studio, though version 2 of Reaper looks significantly improved.

I admit that I was pretty confused about the degree of slack when I heard the midi timing drift in Band-in-a-Box the first time.
It was clearly depending on GUI interactions, so switching a window, doing some mouse action, dragging a mixer cross scree delayed the notes reproducable.

As mentioned I found a similiar disturbance on the ASIO channels in VSTs, but only in Energy XT. Not in Reaper and not in Mini-Host.
Of course the conclusion isn't scientifically correct, but both GUI interactions are WX Widgets based...
And I'm not the only one to mention that this DSP-only processing system does indeed produce a significant CPU load, too.
maybe it runs amok only in certain configurations...

I don't have much VST processing and probably wouldn't have noticed at all, if there hadn't been that nice Ampeg package by IK Multimedia

cheers, Tom

As I told before, testing the scope devices have a perfect performance, when takin the midi in to the device, or when taking the midi sequencer output, internally to the device.
The problems occur with sofware based devices, and with the midi recording events from and for the physical midi in and outs, and.... this problem is not a Scope problem, is a problem that involves all souncards and midi interfaces, more or less. A seach for "midi jitter" maybe you will find that is a issue not only from Cubase, or not form any specified souncard. It´s a midi problem itself. Its an old protocol, and is not all ok many times on computers.

well, we're probably talking about 2 different situations

midi jitter based on the timing interval of the signal is unavoidable, but obviously can be improved with time-stamping the data.

what I wrote about isn't jitter, but delays of 20 to (say) 200 ms because the events aren't processed. Apparently the system is busy with other stuff.
the funny part is that crappy old Win98 doesn't suffer from this...

cheers, Tom

astroman maybe you have a different problem,

I never had problems with lags in scope due to its gui.

maybe its your system and/or setup ?

concering hardware midi/in outs
I wouldn`t disagree that scope could have time problems, as I never checked this out.

astro, this maybe a dumb question and comment, but do you have xp on an 815 machine? is it full of memory? xp really won't run with less that 512mb...

I`m not 100% sure but from my understanding, midi signals in scope is asynchronious information

adititional tasks are done by host cpu in scope, for example gui elements etc.
They don`t run on the cards but your cpu.

So I think GUI interaction may lead too a slight lag on async signals. In this case a slow system may slow down midi (async) nformation in scope also.

garyb wrote:...do you have xp on an 815 machine? is it full of memory? xp really won't run with less that 512mb...

and an 815 will not accept any more than 512 MB

thank you all for your concerns, but actually I don't really have a problem... the context may be misleading.
I had this system under Win98 and when it was time to 'cleanup' I thought of 2 birds with one stone and installed Win2K and Scope 4.5
Additionally there seems to be no 1680x1050 resolution in Win98, strange...
(Sorry, I will not install XP - I got along without Germany's leading elCheapo chain for 25 years and so I will with(out) a piece of spyware.)

hifiboom wrote:...In this case a slow system may slow down midi (async) nformation in scope also.

there was nothing but Scope and Band-in-a-Box running on the machine, a Pentium III 1.2G isn't exacty underpowered for this task
this BiaB thing is mostly a learning tool (for me) to look at some Jazz stuff from time to time - I wouldn't even bother about delayed notes.

It just came to my attention that Win98 didn't seem to have this 'problem', as it didn't have the buffer hickups blue screens either - I used a K4 with ActiveSensing for years as a keyboard in SFP.

So with Win98 I cannot use the latest VST stuff and the screen is a bit blurred, but it's a small system, boots fast, runs the old GM stuff with Giga (Win98 only) for BiaB, Triple serves for vinyl restoration (if ever I find the time...), and Scope as a sound processing module does it's job as usual.

this is not a commercial production system - it's for my fun and recreation

but I have to admit there were more than a couple of times I was just fed up with this OS-BS, driver, version, I-dunno and ready to buy an old ProTools from eBay, peacefully running on a PowerMac under OS8.
If only these boxes had quiet harddrives...

cheers, Tom

yeah but a P3 with 1,2 Ghz is quite underpowered these days even taking my low power system as reference.

Astro, I think that you would need to analyze in depth what happen with band-in-a-box. I´m not sure how it works, and so I have no idea of where maybe be the reason why win98 doesn´t suffer the same as win 2k. Would need to be investigated.
Regarging to the cpu load of the DSP based, I´m not sure about what is the consequence.
Whatever cpu load may be, I just worry about the facts. My testing told me that this chain has no measurable error: Physical midi input- device- Asio channel to sequencer.
On the testing it was:
audio- trigger- physical midi input-device- Asio channel to sequencer.
Here, comparing the original audio, with the final audio, give no measurable time drifting, what is pretty awesonme condidering the few elemens present on the chain.
Considering the title of the thread, and from a point of view of a musician, Scope cards are perfect por playing. Ideally, if we are good in front of our controllers, keyboard, electronic drum machine, midi guitar..., etc, there would be no need to use the midi tracks. Reality is diferent, and most guys edit more than playing.
I don´t like to do it. I prefer to re-play instead of edit, and practique instead of quantize. If fact I´m the 95% of the time playing, and 5% recording.
I enjoy playing, of course, and have no specially interest on recording.
At least, from my point of view, the Scope card for a Player, is just one of the best things avaible on the market, regarding performance, space, and wide rante of sounds (sampling, Dynatube, synths...).
Adding a magma chassis and a laptop, make the Scope so sweet!!
Time have passed since rumours of the Creamware company make people start selling their cards. Now, I have checked the purchasing section, looking for a 14 or 15 dsp card for a reasonable price, and I found the bad, but good new that the prices at just as high as before. That means a bad new for my budget, but good for the platform.