About "transparent" compression (1/2)

[next to nothing]

"Test are made for who are able to understand."

now thats a simple answer, just as i could answer your initial question "what is transperancy" with "Transparency is made for those who understand". Would not help you very much, would it?

[hubird]

Test are made for who are able to understand.

the question is, did you understand what MCCY asked you to do: name your settings?
it would make the discussion much more transparent

[MCCY]

Made some first tests with standard comp:

Overtones change drastically while changing values like attack, release, ratio, treshold...

Only thing I am asking for is all that values for all involved comps & if not available visually a listening comparison to verify that their settings make sense and you don't just have to just dial in different settings to achieve 'similar' (I know that they sound all different, but I mean a similar aim in mixing or mastering) responses.

... you used a blackman curve, am I right?

[manu]

Hey !calm down please !
if you need more information about DAS comp,write to support at das.com !
i can't do it four you !
Kompressor's settings are posted yet,read the topic from the first line instead of flamming me like if i was an EVIL ! i'm just a DAS's customer (only 3 devices) and i wanted to know what is transparency ! you have request me some test and i have made them ! so ,if you don't want to know or don't accept the result , don't request for dynamic or harmonics test !

The only one who have answered me about TRANSPARENCY is "support at das" ! no need for me talk more about this topic ! Thanks for your help "support at das" , and now, i really know what is tranparency and distortion !I would like to have only 10 % of your knowledge sir !

"OT"

@ Shroomz 2 and MCCY ? are you the " Schroomz" and" Martin Knott alias MCyrano" involved in this old story about opening Creamware's devices ?

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=

i understand why you are OT from the begining ot my topic !

end of "OT"

Cheers,

Manuel

for MCCY , test are here,but you need a password : http://www.digitalaudiosoft.com/support.html

[next to nothing]

manu, please understand that noone is here to hurt or fight you, but I for one would like to know how this test works because i am curious. thats it.

So basically what you found out is that this Compal2 module adds harmonics?

and how did you do the test?

[Shroomz~>]

Ah the memories.. nice old link there manu. That old story has very little to do with me though.

I'm out.

[wolf]

Kompressor's price is very cheap and i'm sure,lots of people will buy it for this good reason.

I'm shure for other reasons, too

Manuel, as you tested in extended mode, here's an excerpt from my manual :

It is very easy to screw the sound up in extended mode due to the internal circuit design.
One way to circumstance this problem while development is to limit the access of some settings.
Another way is to inform you about this, which I prefer as in the 1st case some effects would simply
be impossible.
So it is easily possible to create complete silence, if the sidechained signal is always louder than the
treshold. Depending on the settings (e.g. zero attack and 10 seconds release) it even can “hack” the
sound and acts like a gate, because in extended mode the detection reacts very fast.
By comparing the attack and release of both modes, you’ll find differences in behaviour, e.g. release in
extended mode sometimes has to be set longer to achieve the same effect as in standard mode.
However this depends on the other settings like coupling, knee, if the detection works in peak or rms
mode and last but not least on the fed material.
Finally it just shows that extended and standard mode are two different beasts with different
applications and not only some added parameters.

I don't know about the mentioned module (compal2 ?) btw.
The extended mode circuit is build with low level atoms (adders and such).
You may want to try standard mode ..

thanks,
Wolfgang

[MCCY]

@manu

Is it offtopic to ask, which values you dialed in the different compressors to make the test?

So, whom should I ask to get the screenshots or values like you did it for wolfs kompressor if not you? Why other people? You did the tests, no?

I experimented with release & attack & the overtones dissappear very much. Is this offtopic in a topic where exactly the overtones are the topic?

Is this a problem for you to give these values ? I couldn't find them, you could quote them, that would be very easy.

I don't understand your reaction as we are discussing a thing which can be discussed, yes or no?

I asked, if you used a blackman curve.

Where have I been offtopic, could you tell me?

[Fede]

@Fede:"the whole story about transparency is pure marketing"
I don't think so,and i need a clean compressor.I have learned how to make some test and i will use to use my new knowledge.
here are screenshot ,dry and wet signal:
and i like very much Vinco or others reason than you

ok, but one thing is still not clear for me:
how to obtain compression without changing the waveform (and modifying the spectrum)

In your first screenshot the compression ratio is set to infinite: in such a case a waveform will be cut at the threshold level becoming almost a square-wave and showing a corresponding spectrum (a decreasing Dirac comb)

I don't know about compressors that do compression without modifying the harmonic content... I think they cannot exists or they are not compressors

probably you might also be interested in some tool like SPL Transient designer...

cheers,
Fede

[MCCY]

a waveform will be cut at the threshold level becoming almost a square-wave and showing a corresponding spectrum

Seems to be a good explanation. That's exactly what can be changed by attack & release & ratio & treshold variation. I never took a look at the changed waveforms, but that of course makes much sense. May there be some minor additional distortions in not so transparent compressors, but with short attack & release the change of the waveform & therefore the spectrum is exactly what you should expect form a fast compressor.

[MCCY]

@manu

Oh, sorry, I just got the point, that it wasn't you who did the tests. I'd never have startet asking and discussing, if I got earlier who did the tests. It just wasn't clear without following your links.
So really my points were wrongly adressed to you.

So I'm out here, except you want to discuss.

[hubird]

I also thought, you, Manu, did the tests by yourself...and hence I thought, someone who's skilled enough to do such tests can also be expected to know about the conceipt of transparancy...
OT: MCyrano was indeed 'involved' in that story, but only because of being falsely accused by certain folks.
I wouldn't like to see his name blamed for anything except having started that Polteq test

[manu]

@manu

Oh, sorry, I just got the point, that it wasn't you who did the tests. I'd never have startet asking and discussing, if I got earlier who did the tests. It just wasn't clear without following your links.
So really my points were wrongly adressed to you.

So I'm out here, except you want to discuss.

That's good for me next time ,i'll try to search if my topic is clear enough for everyone instead of thinking you wanted to fight me.
anyway,it change nothing about this topic and harmonics or distortion.I'll stop those test because i don't want to spoil a developper.

"OFF TOPIC"

and krass is ok if you mark it up as krass

MODE IRONIC AND KRASS ACTIVATED

@hubird,you like fighting isn't it ? why don't you come in France to visit me ? we could talk about lots of good things instead of "spaming" all topics when they are talking about DAS's professional plugins.We could visit a true recording studio like this one ! "oh my god ! Eric,it's an invitation from digidesign isn't it ?":-)

My friend Eric has told to me to be careful with you and all your nices talents Mr HUBIRD.Who's wrong a sound professional or you ?



"END OF MY FIRST OFF TOPIC ON MY OWN TOPIC"

Eric's photo posted with his agreement

[dawman]

Thanks For The Pics Manu,

Eric looks right at home there. It helps to have great gear around to base your devices on. I saw him with long hair the last time when he was on bass.


We had a rather nice chat today, even though at first he was plotting my demise.

[wolf]

I'll stop those test because i don't want to spoil a developper.

Well .. if it's about me, feel free to go on.
I'm still wondering what you're trying to achieve though ..

kind regards,
Wolfgang

[manu]

Thanks For The Pics Manu,

Eric looks right at home there. It helps to have great gear around to base your devices on. I saw him with long hair the last time when he was on bass.


We had a rather nice chat today, even though at first he was plotting my demise.

Oups Scope4live, i'll have to swich into "an americain to french TRANSLATED mode" private joke for the others

have a great day

Manu

[manu]

@ Wolf,
You are free to think what you want about me or anything else as i'm too,but i really think PM works hard from those last 2 days and you are free to proove me that my "non volontary and requested test" are wrong too.
Are my test 100% ok ? yes or no ?

To be off topic for a second time,can you explain me why your correlation meter is on the right or left at various level when you plug only one cable?
this one don't show and don't react the same as yours but it use a ".dsp" .(the same for Wavelab)

http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=

Maybe there is something wrong in your correlation meter, like there is (for me) in this Kompressor ? that's only a question of course from a true amateur of truth ,feel free to answer or not.
But explain me why Vinco and DAS2A are so clean ?
as far as i know FROM a Sonolive' s topic here, they don't use basic CW comp atoms.Seems DAS and CW knows lots of things about harmonics and distortion due to some sdk atoms.

There is a *"legal" way to know wich dsp and modules are used on all Scope devices.(without opening a protected device).

i'll show you soon, if you want to of course, and using PM

Cheers,

Manu

[wolf]

You are free to think what you want about me or anything else as i'm too

I'm shure if we'd meet in person, we'd have a great chat, maybe play some music together and would leave in peaceful condition.

Are my test 100% ok ? yes or no ?

This depends on what you want to achieve with them
Doing measurements of audio, radio and tv systems since about 15 years as part of my profession there's one rule I learned: only trust your own fake tests
Another one is: The moment I learned something, I learned that I need to learn even more.

The word "transparent" was never mentioned by me, so maybe you should take a compressor, which claims this to make tests about "transparency". Or at least use the standard mode of KomPressor (and maybe not zero attack as few other comps support this ).

To be off topic for a second time,can you explain me why your correlation meter is on the right when you plug only one cable?

It measures the correlation between left and right channel, so if one channel is not connected, there's a difference between left&right. This difference is shown (additionally in your pics the volume is so low, that resolution is low and therefor the waveform mostly at zero).

Maybe there is something wrong in your correlation meter, like there is (for me) in this Kompressor ?

If there would be something wrong, this would be the case with Orbitones Impressor as well, which shows similar behaviour like my extended mode. It is sold since years via cw-shop and done by a well known member of the flexor team.

that's only a question of course from a true amateur of truth ,feel free to answer or not.

thanks for giving me a chance to answer

But explain me why Vinco and DAS2A are so clean ?
as far as i know FROM a Sonolive' s topic here, they don't use basic CW comp atoms.Seems DAS and CW knows lots of things about harmonics and distortion due to some sdk atoms.

sdk-atoms that deliver knowledge ? I want these, too !
(Sorry couldn't resist )

back to the transparent/clean thing:
I don't know the DAS comp, but with KomPressor I can achieve similar fft responses as with Vinco.

However the goal never was to make the most clean compressor, but to combine several compression techniques. This doesn't prevent the possibility of clean compression though.

kind regards,
Wolfgang

[manu]

Wolf, have you actived your "KRASS MODE" or are you serious ?

It measures the correlation between left and right channel, so if one channel is not connected, there's a difference between left&right. This difference is shown (additionally in your pics the volume is so low, that resolution is low and therefor the waveform mostly at zero).

Do you remember this good answer ?

For accurate phase metering you'll need to eliminate the volume differences of both channels and integrate the positive and negative values over time.

kind regards
Wolfgang

I have to admit that it was a "non friendly" provocation from my part
I was sure you will write this kind of answer and yes ! you did it ! thanks for that ! that's so funny to have the chance to talk with a great professional! 15 years doing measurement like that ...oups ,my god !
Of course,you can plug the 2 channel and the result is the same of course! everybody can do this test and will understand that your Correlation meter is bugged ! phase correlation never change with various level of course. sorry i couldn't resist too.
You have tryed to avoid level cancellation by using numerical distortion,using lots of amplifiers in serie for exemple (but not engouh).That was a solution

This depends on what you want to achieve with them
Doing measurements of audio, radio and tv systems since about 15 years as part of my profession there's one rule I learned: only trust your own fake tests
Another one is: The moment I learned something, I learned that I need to learn even more.

for sure.

My own fake test ! everybody can verify those "fake" test ! but you are only chating and not prooving i'm wrong or if my test are wrong.
I understand it makes you nervous ,but that's not a reason for insulting me or my test as fake

back to the transparent/clean thing:
I don't know the DAS comp, but with KomPressor I can achieve similar fft responses as with Vinco.

With your FFT made with vumeter and bandpass do you really need another test ? hope it will serve MCCY to understand how to make good test

Instead of joking and writing that i'm a fake tester,why don't you post your real and so professional test ? maybe you forget how to ?

The word "transparent" was never mentioned by me, so maybe you should take a compressor, which claims this to make tests about "transparency". Or at least use the standard mode of KomPressor (and maybe not zero attack as few other comps support this ).

Right ! ouf ! your first true sentence in all your funny answers
musurgio and DAS talk about transparency .I have written that,but only on the first line of my topic,as you don't read all of course or you read only what you want,you did like MCCY about DAS test.

About attack or release or what you want, this KOMPRESSOR is not able to stop a dirac without distortion because it use COMPSAL2.dsp from SDK.

of course, you can decide if you want me to stop my test and i'll do it with pleasure.

Cheers

Manu

I'm shure if we'd meet in person, we'd have a great chat, maybe play some music together and would leave in peaceful condition.

Thanks,
MCCY is the first one on the list ,and i'm sure you will find some great test like the old "fake" one about DAS's POLTEQ and its phase level "fake cancellation" of course ,in a PEACEFUL condition.
Sorry i'm a very bad musician !I can ask my friend Eric to teach me before !

MODE KRASS OFF

[hubird]

@hubird,you like fighting isn't it ? why don't you come in France to visit me ? we could talk about lots of good things instead of "spaming" all topics when they are talking about DAS's professional plugins.We could visit a true recording studio like this one ! "oh my god ! Eric,it's an invitation from digidesign isn't it ?":-)

My friend Eric has told to me to be careful with you and all your nices talents Mr HUBIRD. ? i couldn't resist

First of all, along with MCCY I voluntary explained that me too was thinking the tests were made by you.
You obviously decided to deny that fact, differently from others.
Fine then, stay stupid.

Another thing is, you seem to be the type of guy who thinks the size of his car proves the size of his dig?
Tell me, what has the size of a studio equipment to do with social forum behaviour, as THAT is what I (and others) was commenting.

You also say, 'Who's wrong, a sound professional or you'.
This is weird, I wasn't talking about any plugs or studio stuff at all, I was just doubting the intentions of your thread.
Life is confusing for you, isn't it?

Let me explain it to you, as you seem to have a rather emotional and chaotic mind.

This thread by you looks like a sneaky but childish attempt to promote some plugs by asking a so called neutral question about 'transparancy'.
Why don't you just say 'I like those plugs because of the great transparancy'?
Because that's the real message of this thread (still).

You think you can fool a classified forum like Planetz?
First you're asking like a newbe what is actually transparency, then you show you know all about params, values and tests, and then you can't resist and shout out loud thank you DAS for your supertransparant plugs...
Man oh man, this is really too much, haha

Btw, congrats with this one:
'Maybe there is something wrong in your correlation meter, like there is (for me) in this Kompressor'
I'm afraid there's something wrong in your heads correlation meter, damn
You have some courage, definitely...

No, I don't like to fight, as you say, I just don't wanne be fooled around.
Just say what you wanne say, like Jimmy does, he praises everything and all, all day, including Das plugs, without any problem from my side.
Btw, since Das decided to respect Planetz' independancy and freedom of speech I don't feel the need to fight with them.
Why would I?

Btw, I don't like you to quote that picture of my studio here, but I can't you forbid it.
There's kinda joke in it which isn't clear in this context.
I'd like to see you deleting it, if you don't mind.
cheers.

PS.
I just read your post above, after posting mine.
My suspicion of your chaotic and social-immature mind comes true.
You COMPLETELY misunderstood Wolf's intentions and writing style.
Even while he obviously was very, very wellwilling answering you...
The same mistakes as I saw before with our friend Eric, strange it is this correspondance: extremely defensive, a too big ego, very unsubtle in presentation, boorish and very clumsy in social behaviour.
It's almost alarming to see the way you're slipping.