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the real inbreds are the ruling elite.
they are the last people to trust with guns. the general public is VERY trustworthy.

the federal government has NO business dealing with abortion or any number of personal issues. that's not what a federal government is for. the constitution is more than current. people and their motivations and the nature of power haven't changed at all. we don't need a king, nor do we need a nanny state. people need to be adults instead of spoiled grown up children is all.

also, firearms were always for killing PEOPLE even back then. when the colonists fought british soldiers and german mercenaries, both sides used guns on each other. guns make big game hunting easier, but they're not needed for subsistance. guns are needed to protect people from psychopaths(like the european royals or power mad presidents) with guns. they are emergency tools for when the government won't or can't protect you, but in a perfect world, no one needs a gun.

it is a fact. american cities and towns that have the most liberal gun laws have the lowest crime rates, and where the gun laws are the stiffest, mayhem is the order of the day. NY, LA, DC, San Francisco etc. all have very tough anti gun laws and they are the place you're most likely to be shot, probably because the criminals know that the good citizens are helpless against their illegal arms. that's certainly true here in the LBC. guns aren't going away even if the public doesn't have any access. the military and the government always attract at least some criminal element, so bad people will always have access. this is true even in europe. if my city is quaranteened like new orleans or warsaw was, i prefer to be armed.

it's puzzling to me why people want to hand over their freedom and personal power to the state. in most cases, the more dependant the people are on the state, the more miserable their lives.....

looks like you're expressing the supposely miserable state of your gouvernment through the years, and the social class struggle your country is involved in.
'I need a gun to protect me against individual and or gouvernmental threats' qualifies for today's Columbian or yesterday's Wild-West sceneries...poor you

wrong. poor you who trusts the predator.

i'm not worried about the government, nor criminals. i'm also not stupid enough to think that government has no criminals in it or that disasters can never occur. the thing is, if a disaster occurs, i can defend myself(since government won't be able to defend me). at the same time, i am just another reason for those who would rule despoticly to sleep uneasily.

you think it's all goodness from your leadership, and yet when the Nazis came to the Netherlands with their Eugenics policies, Dutch doctors proudly resisted the call for "mercy" killing of cripples, the retarded and homosexuals(older Germans may still remeber how in the early days of Nazi policy, disabled children would be sent to special care facilities, only to meet with myserious ends). now, Dutch national health is in the vangaurd of such thinking....

garyb wrote: Dutch national health is in the vangaurd of such thinking....

you're probably aiming at our abortion and in particular euthanesia legislation?

"guns are needed to protect people from psychopaths(like the european royals or power mad presidents) with guns."

yup, they work out fine against power mad presidents in a place called Iraq i heard.

People are very untrustworthy with guns. This has been proven time and time again. Gary has decided to ignore the the overwhelming statistics. There are so many murders, suicides and accidents. Self defense shootings and thwarted attacks are rare in comparison. It's too bad that Gary is so interested in defending himself that he has no empathy for the thousands of others who died. How many lives is your life worth Gary? You probably won't even get to use it. A sane person can buy a gun and later become insane. What is your answer to that Gary? You are just thinking it's all worth it so that you can feel safer?

Check Out this recent headline:


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hKoq ... nA1ae3lUlQ

Oops!!!!


Your comment about overturning the government is ludicrous. No country is worth risking your life over not to mention the lives of others. It's a stupid government now but if it was that bad I would move to another country. Unlike 200 years ago, I can buy a plane ticket.

braincell-
1. who said anything about overthrowing governments? i said an armed populace makes a dictator think twice. as george washington said, "Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a
dangerous servant and a fearful master." this is a perfect example of how little things have changed since the constitution's founding.....

2. how is my defending myself got anything to do with murders and mayhem of/by others?

3. how is banning guns gouing to save people from being murdered? do you think i can't murder you quite viciously without a gun? THE GOVERNMENT CAN"T PROTECT YOU IN AN EMERGENCY AND IT"S NOT NESSESSARILY THERE TO HELP YOU. at best, the government can clean up the mess afterwards.

hubird-
yes, that's exactly what i'm talking about. efficient euthanasia laws that were considered the epitome of Nazi brutality by your fellow countrymen just 50 years ago are now just a nice helpful idea. are you sure that these guys in charge really have nothing but your best interests at heart? do you really think that their primary objective is to make a happy land where you can take chemicals and trip and dance all day?

stardust-
politics is theater. the real decisions are made without all those pesky commoners and their petty squabbles getting in the way......

"do you think i can't murder you quite viciously without a gun?"

of course you can. though i find it harder to throw a knife 300 meters, and i bet a teenager with 3 semi-automatic handguns do more damage in a crowd than a teenager with 3 knives.

@ Gary, about the Dutch euthanasia legislation:

I'm afraid you, as is the rest of the world, are indoctrinated by the
rigid Christian conservative elements in your or everyone elses
country

It's an extremely (I say extremely) well balanced system of rules,
checks, double checks, triple checks, second and third opinions by doctors and family, legal representants etc. etc.,, taking into account the interests of the free individual who wants to step out of the world on the one side,
and the risk of misabuse by possible foul players.

I'm not really an expert, but I know for surethe conditions for legal euthanasia are extremely well defined and formalised.


Don't forget, in our political system with changing coalitions of parties we are forced find the ultimate equilibrium to get something done.
In a more-parties-democracy you never can push something evel through, which can't be said for the one party system the US have.

By special circomstances, we now have a rather weird coalition of
three parties: not alone the usual social-democrats and the Christian-
democrats but also the suddenly grown conservative ultra christian
party.
Even they have accepted the legislation how it is now, as they publicly accept the majority in Holland want it.
They only have said to try to re-establish and reconfirm the time of
5 days a woman has to rethink her decision in case of a abortion.

I thank God (ehh ) I have the legal right to step out MY life
when I think I want that and conditions are according the agreements.
I'm even proud of the way we, first in history, were able to find the
right balance between humanistic and religious interests, between
ultimate personal freedom and social bounderies of misabuse.
Wish English was my native language, as this topic is difficult to treat on it's own already.

You can be sure that other countries in the future will wanne learn from the way we did it.
It's the consequence of ongoing individualisation and self disposal (if that's the right word, can't check language at the moment).

Election for Mayor here tomorrow, and lucky us, no Busch here

....with "Little Lies"

Suppose its about time i commented on the thread I started....

"The constitution was written over 200 years ago and some things about it are *way* outdated. It needs to be *totally* revised."

Braincell - dont be true to your name (most of us have more than one )

As far as I understand, (im not American so forgive me if im wrong) the constituation is a statement from the people empowering individuals (called congress and the president) to LOOK AFTER THE PEOPLE AS SERVENTS TO THE PEOPLE.

ITS PRINCIPLES ARE MORE RELEVANT TODAY THAN THEY EVER HAVE BEEN - the whole notion of a constitution is a sterling idea and something I wish we had over here (England) as it is a statement of rights that acts as a benchmark as to what rights you have - once they start getting eroded, its clear. At the end of the day, rights that people had back then should still apply today - like Ron Paul says - rights are not granted by the government but the creator (god, allah or whatever you wish to call them). On that basis the government hasnt granted the rights and therefore has no right to take them away from you (which is exaclty whats happening now - I thought it was the terrorists that were trying to destroy our freedom - they may be trying but its actually governments that are doing this).

In England, before the Iraq war, we have never been safer from the threat of terrorism following the IRA ceasefire - during that time, it was never concieved that we should give up as much liberties as we have now that the "war on terror" is in full swing. And thats another thing - propaganda. We were getting bombed for 30 years+ yet we never had to put up with the verbal terrorism that has accompanied this war. If you look up terrorism at dictionary dot com - you will see that the media organisations and governments are actually more guilty of it than Al Qaeda ever were.

The freedoms being eroded right now are exactly the rights individuals have that are required to deal with a tyrannical despot (bush, blair, brown (pigs)). Why are they so hell bent on destroying these freedoms? Because they are tyranny embodied.

Why are authorities hell bent on suppressing protest? Is it because people are finally waking up to the realisation that all is not what it seems?

Alex Jones (www.infowars.com) got arrested for protesting about the official 9/11 story in NY!!!! Charged with using a sound device without a permit!! Can you believe that? Arent ears sound devices? bet it wont be long before thats banned You would maybe expect this sort of oppression in China but not in an alleged democratic society!

Appreciating the debate!

Free the world!!!!

Refrochia wrote:Appreciating the debate!

really?

Refrochia wrote:Braincell - dont be true to your name (most of us have more than one )

(at least his one cell produces quite nice ideas if you ask me )

first, thanks one and all for the opportunity to rant and rave. i intend to take full advantage of it. i hope to do this, stir up thought and discussion without having anyone's emotions get the best of them. let's hope for the best....

you know, reading some comments, it's a wonder that humans have survived some 250,000 years(20,000 under civilization). i suspect that the common folk aren't the problem though. the common folk took care of each other long before big brother came around with his helpfulness, his suicide and cancer, et al. the common folk take care of each other still. the elite lie. whenever they help, they help towards destruction, quick painful destruction, or long ligering pleasant destruction. europe is in a negative population growth and yet death is encouraged. when have the elite not killed the commoners with no regard? why trust them over and over again?

it is a matter of fact. the human being is made to last 150 years or so. it's funny how 90 years old is seen as ancient. something's amiss, but most are too hypnotized to notice. the fact is, there is serious technology that will extend a human lifespan considerably beyond that. but first, 80-90% need to die according to the official documents. this is the plan. the elite are patient. if you manage to figure it out, you might stop it so better to move slow. sounds crazy? of course it does. you are nice people, who couldn't imagine doing real evil. if you read the books from the club of rome, the bilderburg meeting minutes, david rockefellor's books, h.g. wells non-fiction works, the works of malthus, the details of the un's agenda for the 21st century(agenda 21), plato's republic, huxley's work, russel's work and many others, you will see that there IS a plan.

back to the washington quote "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master", if the politicians who run my country are in league with the one's that run yours, hubird(and they ARE and i CAN prove it. i posses a membership roster to the bohemian grove and guess what, members of the dutch elite are grove members. i have books by the club of rome, a serious organization that sets policy for the globe, and there are dutch members. check here:http://www.clubofrome.org/members/membe ... hip=Active), and they don't respect any of the careful checks and balances in my countries systems, but act lawlessly and dictitorially, what makes you so sure that could never happen to you? believe me, no good German ever guessed their society could result in the 3rd riech. they were much too sophisticated for such things...

piddi, the same to you. Iraqis(the common folk) were DISARMED by their government long ago. do you really think foriegn armies would be over there if they weren't disarmed? their bad presidents are and were u.s. allies. how often do the Swiss get invaded? and a random murder is always a problem whether it's a kniife, a gun, arson, poison, a rock, a sword(the MOST dangerous weapon in a crowd!), a stick, a baseball bat, explosives, a piano wire(if there is a sudden surge in garroting do we ban pianos and guitars?), whatever, the problem is MURDER, not guns.

are we really just kept sheep? is that the pinnacle of humanity's purpose? i say people are more than fit to rule themselves if the state will allow them to be raised as such. we have been bred into slavery and servitude, but it's not our true place and we are not really that lame or that dumb. not as dumb as Arnold and his elite like would say: "People need somebody to watch over them. Ninety-five percent of the people in the world need to be told what to do and how to behave." well, screw you Arnie boy, and all your little toadies. people would get on just fine without their kings and queens. healthy folk would give someone that uppity a beat down and a hug and then break the stupid throne.

i suspect Ron Paul is not as pure and good as he purports to be, but i haven't seen another politician who really seems to be a public SERVANT and not an AUTHORITY for quite some time(he almost seems like Jimmy Stewart or Gary Cooper in a capra film!). he's the only one expressing those values that are truly "american", in that the government that he espouses is constitutional and limited in power and scope, leaving most power to the common folks, whom all political power flows through. he is currently the true front runner as well(though the television hates that and does it's best to deny it). i would expect his tenure, if he were to be elected, to be frustrated from dirty tricks and power wrangling, or more likely, lasting no more than a day before the assassination. i'm willing to give it one last shot myself, though. you never know what will happen for sure, the life needs to be lived first.

Garyb - yr probably right about the assasination comment - ever noticed how anybody with a strong public following gets bumped off? Luther King - Kennedy - Princess Diana to name just a few. They obviously got too powerful which must've scared some of the elite.

Whats the quote from V for Vendetta? Ideas are bullet proof? If Ron was to get elected president, he would have had to have acheived some sort of critical mass of voters (acheived through word of mouth and the internet as he isnt getting the media coverage) - it strikes me (based on comments read on the internet that has mobalised an otherwise dorment set of voters - probably the same set of people that feel disenfranchised by the whole system and think what the hell can they do?) If he was to win and then get assasinated, it could possibly be the worst thing the elite could do - there could be the potential there for a full blown revolution.

What time of the year do the results of a presidentail race get announced? Any time around December? If he doesnt get in this time, theres every chance for the next time round which could be 21st Dec 2012.....Date ring a bell anybody?

13?

of course 'the Elite' organizes itself, it are friends, with common interests, and it's what people do.
just like do labour forces, the street corner gang, the communists, the R.A.F. members, the fans of U2, the owners of a Creamware card, etc.

You think you reveal a secret?

As a marxist, phylosophically that is, I concider the mainstream of history as a dynamic struggle between classes, with the available resources as stake.
The extreme high criminality factor in the USA is an expression of that struggle.

The Elite, as it's small and has to defend what they gathered already, prefer the more secret methods to get where they want, like the Rosae Crucis, now kind of a club for demental men...
The masses always do profit more from publicity and collectiv mass action.
All that is logic.

Emphasizing the 'secret life of the Elite' is contraproductive from the point of view of the masses.
It makes a computer game of real class struggle, and it leads to mystification of interests rather than revealing the truth.

If there's a Masterplan, then it doesn't work really well, louk around.
The one defeat after the other can be seen, unless you define everything as intended - which would make a joke of you or anyone believing in The Force...

the life needs to be lived first.
Exactly.
Therefor I'm glad I live in a country where I have the possibility and now legal right to ask for help with a painless and non-dehumiliating end of my own life

And where do you get the wisdom from that a fine mazed euthanasia law plays into the cards of possible misabusers?
Conditions, methods and juridical responsabilities are discussed in public, on lower and highest socio-political levels, and freezed in a law that is subscribed my the very majority of the Dutch people.
THAT is the best protection against future misabuse.

If I would be afraid of misabuse of the law by future leaders -given the decent socio-political structure of my country- exactly THEN I would act as 'they' want: live in fear.

love you ranting tho

I am totally against giving power to the people until they are better educated. We are in a vicious cycle right now. A crappy public education system creates stupid voters who vote for politicians who don't support public education because they want to continue to be re-elected.

One thing for sure, in a society with no government, few people would have any education and worse, there would be more church schools.
Eliminating the government would quickly create a situation where even more stupid people such as church leaders would take power.

I propose we eliminate the states. They do nothing but bicker between themselves and the federal government and create a huge redundancy in administration costs. On the local level, funding school through property taxes creates inequity. It's just a bunch of little fiefdoms.

communism is designed for the final destruction of mankind. the state should never be the final arbiter of human life. the state is not human nor is it wiser than humans. the Rockefellor family has been the money supporting communism, why do you think that is? IT IS THE CAPITALISTS WHO PAY FOR COMMUNISM!


who educates the masses and why are they so ignorant? how can one uberpowerful state be finally created before those being ruled are fit and knowledgable to rule themselves? it's the old "fox in charge of the henhouse". unthinkable.

yes, the elite like to hang out together like any other group. however, what the elite like are slaves, so when they get together the talk about how to maintain slaves. don't think because you enjoy some luxuries now that they are your freinds. things will change soon enough, if not for you, then for your blood kin. don't say "thank god, i'll never see it" and pass it on to others, because it's exactly this kind of selfishness that will assure the coming of the worst.

yes, i do like to rant....

The communism "boogieman" has always been used as a threat by conservatives to thwart any attempt at socialism. This is why we have such a huge gap between the wealthy and they ever growing hoards of impoverished and desperate needy.

Our nation is a failure and getting worse. Year by year we are going down the toilet while people like you work to keep the present system in place.