Creamware and his mysterious marketing...
Re: Creamware and his mysterious marketing...
The answer is right there in what you wrote... when they have lots of expensive, good-sounding outboard, nice big SSL desk and huge patchbay, why would they need Scope? It would only complicate things. Strongroom is mainly a recording studio, not really a synth-noodler's studio. In such a studio you just need stuff that works in a tried and tested way that stands up to all the abuse that it will take.erminardi wrote:This past week I went to London at Strongroom studios ( http://www.strongroom.com ) where a friend of mine is sound engineer. (I've tried a lot of pro gear like Neve, API, SSL, Manley, Drawmer, Universal Audio, Tube Tech... Sony Playstation 2... etc. Wow!)
Well, they don't know almost nothing about creamware... Scope, ASB, Klangbox: nothing.
Sorry but you're wrong, and again the answer is there in what you wrote. You cannot appreciate the weight of sound of an analog synth with any headphones. A/B them in the studio (especially with the CV/modulation addon) and then tell me a Voyager is a 'status symbol'.Anyway, I've tried another time the Moog Voyager (with good earphone) and I can assure that the sound this is very very (repeat, very) close to Minimax.
So, spending 2000 pounds for a monophonic "status symbol" seems to me not so clever if for less of the half U can obtain a sort of Memorymoog!!!
Expecially for live use.
I love Scope, but what you are saying is absolute nonsense. It's unnecessary for big studios, and is too complex for the VST crowd. It is a niche product and extremely hard to market. Those who need it generally find out about it eventually. The fact that not a lot of people want it says a lot about the vast majority of the end-user market, which is simply that most people are very very stupid indeed. I don't think there's a lot Creamware can do to change that.
I didn't know the SSL included synthesizers. These are Apples and oranges. I wouldn't use Creamware in a big studio because it is too tedious but this has nothing to do with the hardware. I'm sure an SSL sounds better though. The reason that Creamware is expensive is because they don't sell enough of them. If more people knew about it, they would sell more. It is no more expensive than a decent synthesizer.
The Minimax is good. Nobody listens to just the Minimax. It is arranged within a mix therefore a small difference would not matter at all. Don't be a snob.
The Minimax is good. Nobody listens to just the Minimax. It is arranged within a mix therefore a small difference would not matter at all. Don't be a snob.
Braincell - thanks for the tired, yawn-worthy 'in the mix' argument.
If a Minimax suits your purposes, great. Just don't try and pretend that it's the same as an analog moog. Because it quite simply isn't.
Regarding studios - they can hire in any synth they want to at any time. This is the way things work in big studios. When you have a huge rig to maintain, there's no point buying and maintaining a Scope system just for some synths. In most cases there's no point even keeping and maintaining hardware synths... it's easier to leave that to a hire company and just get the client to hire the thing in if it's needed. Is this so difficult to understand?
Again I love Scope, but its strength is a 'big hardware studio approach' with the convenience and low cost of a PCI card and software. If you think it's expensive for what it does you are totally devoid of a clue I'm afraid.
If I did not have money and space constraints (i.e. if I ran a big studio) then I'd pay for a proper analog rig with a big fat mixer and juicy outboard. No matter how much I love Scope, if I had to choose, I'd go for the fat analog rig every time.
You simply do not understand this industry. I've worked in music stores before, and was the only person there who knew what Scope was about. When someone came in and asked about a digital mixer or soundcard or even a synth, and you show them what Scope can do, it's just too much... every single person who I tried that with just said 'Can you sell me the Yamaha 01V/M-Audio shite/Access Virus now please?' at the end of the spiel. When people are this stupid and this sheep-like, Scope is not an easy thing to market at all. It's even harder now that people are sold on the convenience of VSTs.
All I'd say is, if Scope works for you then use it and make great music with it. There is no point making a campaign to make the whole world use it too.
If a Minimax suits your purposes, great. Just don't try and pretend that it's the same as an analog moog. Because it quite simply isn't.
Regarding studios - they can hire in any synth they want to at any time. This is the way things work in big studios. When you have a huge rig to maintain, there's no point buying and maintaining a Scope system just for some synths. In most cases there's no point even keeping and maintaining hardware synths... it's easier to leave that to a hire company and just get the client to hire the thing in if it's needed. Is this so difficult to understand?
Again I love Scope, but its strength is a 'big hardware studio approach' with the convenience and low cost of a PCI card and software. If you think it's expensive for what it does you are totally devoid of a clue I'm afraid.
If I did not have money and space constraints (i.e. if I ran a big studio) then I'd pay for a proper analog rig with a big fat mixer and juicy outboard. No matter how much I love Scope, if I had to choose, I'd go for the fat analog rig every time.
You simply do not understand this industry. I've worked in music stores before, and was the only person there who knew what Scope was about. When someone came in and asked about a digital mixer or soundcard or even a synth, and you show them what Scope can do, it's just too much... every single person who I tried that with just said 'Can you sell me the Yamaha 01V/M-Audio shite/Access Virus now please?' at the end of the spiel. When people are this stupid and this sheep-like, Scope is not an easy thing to market at all. It's even harder now that people are sold on the convenience of VSTs.
All I'd say is, if Scope works for you then use it and make great music with it. There is no point making a campaign to make the whole world use it too.
At Strongroom they have an original Minimoog (obvious, is a customer required standard as i.e. Neumann's Microphones...), but they are interested about the possibility of poliphony, patch memory and the portability around the other little studios that are inside the same building. Little project/mastering/postproduction studios.
Anyway they can afford easily all ASB, a new Voyager and the Little Phatty... the poit is that they knows i.e. the Virus Polar, the Nord Modular II (that is, without doubt, less good than ModIII+flexor) and they don't know ASB!!!
Period.
Anyway they can afford easily all ASB, a new Voyager and the Little Phatty... the poit is that they knows i.e. the Virus Polar, the Nord Modular II (that is, without doubt, less good than ModIII+flexor) and they don't know ASB!!!
Period.
4PC + Scope 5.0 + no more Xite + 2xScope Pro + 6xPulsarII + 2xLunaII + SDK + a lot of devices (Flexor III & Solaris 4.1 etc.) + Plugiator.
Personally I'm not convinced by Klangbox, although I hope it works out for CW.
There is no reason why ASB synths shouldn't succeed, although I do have the following concerns, none of which is really connected to marketing:
1. lack of multitimbrality
2. relative lack of polyphony compared to something like Virus Polar. While 1 voice of ASB sounds light years better than 1 Virus voice, I think most people except those looking for an easy device for live use would prefer more flexibility and poly.
3. slightly cheap/ropey presentation - euro wall-warts, a few bugs (quickly fixed but people don't tend to remember details like that)
The best comparison I can think of for the ASB is the original Nord Lead.. fairly limited poly and multitimbrality, but really nice sounding with character. The Alesis Ion is also along similar lines.
Anything else is not really a fair comparison.
I do actually know the UK distributor, and they do try to sell the ASB's. The thing is that most people are not clued up enough or not confident enough in their judgment to go and A/B some synths themselves. People tend to go with the prevailing 'standards' - Access Virus, Nord stuff. Most musicians want guaranteed stability and a new unknown company represents potential risks and hassle. IMHO the days of wanting to try and forge your own sound or flavour seem to be gone.
There is no reason why ASB synths shouldn't succeed, although I do have the following concerns, none of which is really connected to marketing:
1. lack of multitimbrality
2. relative lack of polyphony compared to something like Virus Polar. While 1 voice of ASB sounds light years better than 1 Virus voice, I think most people except those looking for an easy device for live use would prefer more flexibility and poly.
3. slightly cheap/ropey presentation - euro wall-warts, a few bugs (quickly fixed but people don't tend to remember details like that)
The best comparison I can think of for the ASB is the original Nord Lead.. fairly limited poly and multitimbrality, but really nice sounding with character. The Alesis Ion is also along similar lines.
Anything else is not really a fair comparison.
I do actually know the UK distributor, and they do try to sell the ASB's. The thing is that most people are not clued up enough or not confident enough in their judgment to go and A/B some synths themselves. People tend to go with the prevailing 'standards' - Access Virus, Nord stuff. Most musicians want guaranteed stability and a new unknown company represents potential risks and hassle. IMHO the days of wanting to try and forge your own sound or flavour seem to be gone.
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hubird
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Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Bath, England
FWIW, there is a list of UK Creamware dealers on the Creamware website:
I think that it should be OK to reproduce here:
Brighton Guitar and Amp 01273 671971
Scotl Dunfirmline Sound Control 01383 732273
Scotl East Kilbride Mediaspec 01355 272 500
W.Y. Greengates Sonic8 Ltd 08701 657 456
Surr. Guildford Andertons 01483 456777
E.Y. Hull HP Systems 01482 890040
London Mediatools 0207 6926611
Nott. Mansfield Academy of Sound 01623 622225
Newcastle Sounds Live 0870 757 2360
Essex Romford Digital Village 01708 771900
Warrington Dawsons 01925 632591
I'd call that a "niche" list. The list for the USA isn't very much bigger than that, really.
The finer technical issues aside, native CPU power has really come a long, long way from when Creamware products started. Whichever way you go (VST/Native or Creamware) you've got to buy a PC/Mac anyway, right?
For most "hobby/home studio" people, forking out for a decent PC and some sequencing software (which probably comes with a bunch of VSTs) and a decent I/O card is expense enough.
On the other hand, a professional studio isn't going to muck about with a couple of PCI cards; as darkrezin points out, they'll have top-of-the-range analogue kit (or analogue/digital hybrid stuff), big fat mixing desks, automated faders, sound booths, the works. Even a cappuccino machine, probably.
So where does that leave Creamware? If I had to make my decisions over again now, and I didn't have the knowledge of Creamware products that I do, I'd probably go for a Mac/Logic/VSTs studio solution. I think that I'd find it hard to understand the benefits of spending the money necessary to get a Creamware system added to my 'already-ready-to-go' native system.
What's sad, I think is that there doesn't appear to be any other products like the Creamware cards out there at all, or even likely to be developed in the foreseeable future.
When the Creamware PCI cards finally sink below the horizon, that could well be the end of an era, leaving only native processing systems behind.
Best make the most of them, then!
I think that it should be OK to reproduce here:
Brighton Guitar and Amp 01273 671971
Scotl Dunfirmline Sound Control 01383 732273
Scotl East Kilbride Mediaspec 01355 272 500
W.Y. Greengates Sonic8 Ltd 08701 657 456
Surr. Guildford Andertons 01483 456777
E.Y. Hull HP Systems 01482 890040
London Mediatools 0207 6926611
Nott. Mansfield Academy of Sound 01623 622225
Newcastle Sounds Live 0870 757 2360
Essex Romford Digital Village 01708 771900
Warrington Dawsons 01925 632591
I'd call that a "niche" list. The list for the USA isn't very much bigger than that, really.
The finer technical issues aside, native CPU power has really come a long, long way from when Creamware products started. Whichever way you go (VST/Native or Creamware) you've got to buy a PC/Mac anyway, right?
For most "hobby/home studio" people, forking out for a decent PC and some sequencing software (which probably comes with a bunch of VSTs) and a decent I/O card is expense enough.
On the other hand, a professional studio isn't going to muck about with a couple of PCI cards; as darkrezin points out, they'll have top-of-the-range analogue kit (or analogue/digital hybrid stuff), big fat mixing desks, automated faders, sound booths, the works. Even a cappuccino machine, probably.
So where does that leave Creamware? If I had to make my decisions over again now, and I didn't have the knowledge of Creamware products that I do, I'd probably go for a Mac/Logic/VSTs studio solution. I think that I'd find it hard to understand the benefits of spending the money necessary to get a Creamware system added to my 'already-ready-to-go' native system.
What's sad, I think is that there doesn't appear to be any other products like the Creamware cards out there at all, or even likely to be developed in the foreseeable future.
When the Creamware PCI cards finally sink below the horizon, that could well be the end of an era, leaving only native processing systems behind.
Best make the most of them, then!
As a studio item I agree, studios don't bother with this type of item but for the home enthusiast it is perfect. It's all in the marketing as this thread began. I can think of countless examples of expensive and over priced items being the most popular. Starbucks coffee comes to mind. Excuse me but you people don't know what the hell you are talking about. No offense.
Counterparts, I notice you've got SoundControl & Digital Village stores on that list. Well, here's the deal without talking directly about marketing this time. SoundControl bought over Turnkey & Academy Of Sound, so they can be treated as one in the same. Anyway, not counting those UK shops which SoundControl now own, they have 25 SoundControl shops in major towns & cities accross the UK. Not one of those 25 shops (even in London as Erminardi pointed out) have an ASB unit in store for people to check out & demo. Digital Village may well be the second largest chain of music shops in England with 8 stores in total, 4 of which are in & around London. None of the 8 Digital Village stores have an ASB unit in-store either. You can buy an ASB easily enough either online or by ordering through a dealer, but your chances of walking into a professional music store (even the largest ones) in the UK & actually seeing an ASB in the flesh are practically zero (or so it would seem at the moment). I dunno, maybe that isn't a problem.
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Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Bath, England
It's not *all* in the marketing. Perceived value-for-money of a particular system has a bearing too, as well as the technical knowledge and competance of the end-user.braincell wrote:As a studio item I agree, studios don't bother with this type of item but for the home enthusiast it is perfect. It's all in the marketing as this thread began.
As an example, I went for Creamware for a number of reasons:
o I am technically knowlegeable and competent
o I rarely, if ever go for "mainstream" products, products that I perceive most people choose; I will make an effort to find alternatives
o I actively ignore all marketing; it's generally all lies designed to extract money from you
You are under the sad illusion that you know better than everybody else. That's never true of anybody. Your knowledge is not a "complete set". Unfortunately, humility is a prerequisite of learning from others and you seem to be somewhat devoid of this. No offenseExcuse me but you people don't know what the hell you are talking about. No offense.
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Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Bath, England
actually, mid priced real studios are a perfect market for scope. as i keep saying, imho, the synths are just the gravy with this card. because most people here at z and around cwa are synth enthusiasts, and because the synths are really good, the fact that scope is one of the best soundcards ever made and maybe ever to be made and that the studio tools are first-rate is often overlooked(when limited ad and developement dollars are spent, synths are seen as the easiest way to make money). the only thing lacking is dedicated hardware controller support. it's not hard to set control surfaces up, it'd just be better if a controller could be used the way mackie control works with say, cubase. the people who run real studios could easily figure it out and work with it though, because the people that run real studios are called engineers.
the only thing keeping scope from being a rage in pro studios is lack of advertising budget and the apalling way that gear in the music business works. nobody, nobody will take a chance on a product that everyone else he knows doesn't use. hence, the first product tends to be the only product(as in shure sm58s and protools).
the only thing keeping scope from being a rage in pro studios is lack of advertising budget and the apalling way that gear in the music business works. nobody, nobody will take a chance on a product that everyone else he knows doesn't use. hence, the first product tends to be the only product(as in shure sm58s and protools).