there's always been strife between those few who lead and wish for greater power, not really from people in general....
once again, if you want to be criminal or brutal, the best place to do it from is an official position in government. stop trusting those guys and hold them accountable and many problems will just disappear...
obviously all this terrorist clampdown is bullsh*t. ALL of the "terrorists" captured or identified so far have either been intelligence agents(london bombing) or low grade morons with iq's less than 70 and intelligence handlers(massoui, warehouse bombers). even if the threat is real, the actions taken won't make anyone any safer. the government cannot protect against that kind of thing. they can only crack down on honest citizens. as braincell has pointed out, horrible as these events are, they are rare. eliminating guns from only the citizenry won't stop killings either.
this is what we have to look forward to, with an unarmed citizenry and out of control leadership(watch the video clips): http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/15228898.htm
when the nafta, jack-booted, blue helmeted un troops march down my street in response to some manufactured terrorist event, coming to disarm us so that total control can be established, they're getting a bullet in the head. i'll take my chances with my neighbors. low life as they are, and armed to the teeth as they are, they've never pointed a gun at me. the police have however, and in numbers and with zero provocation.
... and the manhattan project might have been infiltrated, but it was still secret, unknown to even the people who lived in the areas where hundreds and even thousands were employed.
Air Safety and Terrorism
Obvious ? Not to most people.On 2006-08-20 12:23, garyb wrote:
obviously all this terrorist clampdown is bullsh*t. ALL of the "terrorists" captured or identified so far have either been intelligence agents(london bombing) or low grade morons with iq's less than 70 and intelligence handlers(massoui, warehouse bombers).
And as for terrorists being agents or morons, this certainly wasn't true of the Bali bombers. They were students, professionals and top religious leaders. A huge stretch of the imagination is required to feed them into any western-inspiraced conspiracy.
And comparing the secrecy of the Manhattan project which was a specific and "static" technical project, to a multinational terror conspiracy involving umpteen thousand agents, intel operations, troops, police and dozens of nations, is not a logical comparison.
no.
it is because they were behaving criminally. i never posed a threat to them in anyone's wildest imagination. what is so hard to understand that those who seek positions of power are often corrupt? not all police are bad, and i'd truly like to like them. many take steroids a substance that is known to cuase delusions of granduer and psychotic breaks, you'd think rooting that out of the force would be a priority, especially since steroids are illegal, a felony. 6 out of 10 officers in the street in long beach where i live are on steroids anyway. they behave brutally.
there are certainly individuals and even small organizations who idealogically beleive that they'll somehow "come up" through heinous acts. not allowing bottled water on the airplane isn't going to protect against those acts though, that kind of action is as random as lightning striking. you can lessen the chances of being struck, but when it's your number, it's your number. life is dangerous. the government can't and won't protect against this!
any individual or group that becomes large and well funded has to have official ties or approval. that's just how money works, it's movements are tracked and controlled from the highest levels....or haven't you noticed the uniformity of trade? at the highest levels all ideologies are seen as meaningless, nothing more than tools to control the masses. if that is too horrific to face fine, carry on.
Spirit, maybe you never heard of W199i the presidential order number telling fbi agents to stop investigating the binladens and the guys who would later "fly planes into the twuin towers"? these things do get exposed all the time. doublethink involves seeing the truth and denying it. if doublethink is successfully applied, people in charge can lie quite baldfacedly and never get questioned.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2006-08-20 14:41 ]</font>
it is because they were behaving criminally. i never posed a threat to them in anyone's wildest imagination. what is so hard to understand that those who seek positions of power are often corrupt? not all police are bad, and i'd truly like to like them. many take steroids a substance that is known to cuase delusions of granduer and psychotic breaks, you'd think rooting that out of the force would be a priority, especially since steroids are illegal, a felony. 6 out of 10 officers in the street in long beach where i live are on steroids anyway. they behave brutally.
there are certainly individuals and even small organizations who idealogically beleive that they'll somehow "come up" through heinous acts. not allowing bottled water on the airplane isn't going to protect against those acts though, that kind of action is as random as lightning striking. you can lessen the chances of being struck, but when it's your number, it's your number. life is dangerous. the government can't and won't protect against this!
any individual or group that becomes large and well funded has to have official ties or approval. that's just how money works, it's movements are tracked and controlled from the highest levels....or haven't you noticed the uniformity of trade? at the highest levels all ideologies are seen as meaningless, nothing more than tools to control the masses. if that is too horrific to face fine, carry on.
Spirit, maybe you never heard of W199i the presidential order number telling fbi agents to stop investigating the binladens and the guys who would later "fly planes into the twuin towers"? these things do get exposed all the time. doublethink involves seeing the truth and denying it. if doublethink is successfully applied, people in charge can lie quite baldfacedly and never get questioned.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2006-08-20 14:41 ]</font>
I've stayed out of most of these types of conversations.... other than being a stooge. But your issue with the police hit home. Because many years ago the state government here put massive effort into cleaning up the police...... and over many years they changed the police culture. It made a huge difference in my opinion. I've found them to be straightforward and professional.
But obviously change has to start at the top.
I can only shake my head at the amount of money the US government has put into Iraq. If that money had been put into infrastructure, education, and social services......wow!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: emzee on 2006-08-20 16:43 ]</font>
But obviously change has to start at the top.
I can only shake my head at the amount of money the US government has put into Iraq. If that money had been put into infrastructure, education, and social services......wow!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: emzee on 2006-08-20 16:43 ]</font>
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
oh my frigging god... if you mean what you said in the above quote i just utterly and totally lost every bit of respect i ever had for you.
when the nafta, jack-booted, blue helmeted un troops march down my street in response to some manufactured terrorist event, coming to disarm us so that total control can be established, they're getting a bullet in the head.
oh, and please tell me how UN is ever gonna occupy USA and raid your streets for weapons.
your "peace"-image just broke.
purely rhetorical, please relax. 
how will it happen?
in response to an engineered biological threat or engineered terrorist event, upon invitation from a corrupt administration... americans supposedly don't beleive in blueblood nobility's "authority" and can be quite prickly in the face of oppression. don't worry, it's being bred out of us, so the world will be safe for the merovingian line soon....
i'm not looking for trouble from anyone, but it's possible trouble will find a lot of people in the new cashless world of biometrically scanned and chip implanted, video monitored humanity that this "war on terror" is driving us towards.
....just playing out some all too real scifi scenarios...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2006-08-20 19:14 ]</font>
how will it happen?
in response to an engineered biological threat or engineered terrorist event, upon invitation from a corrupt administration... americans supposedly don't beleive in blueblood nobility's "authority" and can be quite prickly in the face of oppression. don't worry, it's being bred out of us, so the world will be safe for the merovingian line soon....
i'm not looking for trouble from anyone, but it's possible trouble will find a lot of people in the new cashless world of biometrically scanned and chip implanted, video monitored humanity that this "war on terror" is driving us towards.
....just playing out some all too real scifi scenarios...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2006-08-20 19:14 ]</font>
-
Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Bath, England
I find the airport-specific nature of the recent rise in security status a bit confusing/stupid.
You could quite happily stroll onto a cross-channel ferry with a 1000 kiloton nuclear warhead strapped to your back and nobody would notice. Take a pair of nail cutters on a plane and it's "Guantanemo bay, sucker!" Bloody daft.
Did anybody hear about the twelve-year-old kid who strolled right though airport security and ended up on the plane?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4796199.stm
Security? pfft!
You could quite happily stroll onto a cross-channel ferry with a 1000 kiloton nuclear warhead strapped to your back and nobody would notice. Take a pair of nail cutters on a plane and it's "Guantanemo bay, sucker!" Bloody daft.
Did anybody hear about the twelve-year-old kid who strolled right though airport security and ended up on the plane?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4796199.stm
Security? pfft!
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
Working at the airport as ground engineer, my collegues and myself experience the dubious honour to watch it all from close-by. When entering the hanger, which happend about 10 times per shift, we get checked in much the same way as regular people when they want to take a flight. We used to badge at the different entry doors, one after the other as we went direction of airside, but since last year we get body- and bag searches, and soon x-rays. On top of that, any airside personel is security checked and cleared by State Security.
Once airside, we use plenty of dangerous goods and possibly lethal tools (hammers, screwdrives, wrenches etc;), we taxi around with planes, fly along in the cockpit (the rear is stuffed with cargo, no seats there..). We need to thrust each other with these things. But since we're all human, ground as air crew, no security measure can prevent one from snapping. Human factors are way too complex for that, and human operators will always be required. Counterparts, I so agree...
On top of that, next generation suicidal terrorists will just follow standard pilot training, get a job in the industry (or, why not in a nuclear plant or the army eh) and will have all the time to plan whatever they want to do. We do not have any mind reading machines that can tell honest from terrorist people, and most people that were involved in the London attacks did not have any criminal record or history. They were good civilians like you and me, untill they deceided to attack with gear anyone can buy in a grocery shop.
And what measure are is your paranoid government gonna take against a freaking truck driver with tons of fuel or more dangerous goods from hitting the city hall? As Garyb says, such acts are random as lightening, and little can be done against it. Ken's got a point when asking to relax - that's about the only thing that makes sense, since there's little anyone can do about it.
The measures they take, no matter how thorough, can never provide total safety. Living in peace with and showing basic respect for one another would be some step in the right direction I think, possibly more efficient than invading nations, manipulating and subverting goverments and letting them escalate in civil war.
During my visits to Israel, for work or for holidays at redmuze's, I'm always impressed by the security measures that are in place all over the country. Similar situations I've seen in Belfast during Marching season, or when GWB puts his feet on the ground on our apron from time to time. I think these levels of surveillance will become more widely spread in the next years outside of these crisis zones, and people will accept them as part of their daily life. Thinking it makes them feel safer, while it may just make them all more paranoid.
In Italy, shortly after a sister company's plane crashed in apparent suspicious circumstances, I couldn't tell if the extra military guys that were securing the airfield could spell their own name correctly. Not exactly the kind of guys I would give a machine gun eh. One thing that security measures have in common wherever I've been: it's a big business of hi-tech toys, that does a great job putting down unemployment levels.
Once airside, we use plenty of dangerous goods and possibly lethal tools (hammers, screwdrives, wrenches etc;), we taxi around with planes, fly along in the cockpit (the rear is stuffed with cargo, no seats there..). We need to thrust each other with these things. But since we're all human, ground as air crew, no security measure can prevent one from snapping. Human factors are way too complex for that, and human operators will always be required. Counterparts, I so agree...
On top of that, next generation suicidal terrorists will just follow standard pilot training, get a job in the industry (or, why not in a nuclear plant or the army eh) and will have all the time to plan whatever they want to do. We do not have any mind reading machines that can tell honest from terrorist people, and most people that were involved in the London attacks did not have any criminal record or history. They were good civilians like you and me, untill they deceided to attack with gear anyone can buy in a grocery shop.
And what measure are is your paranoid government gonna take against a freaking truck driver with tons of fuel or more dangerous goods from hitting the city hall? As Garyb says, such acts are random as lightening, and little can be done against it. Ken's got a point when asking to relax - that's about the only thing that makes sense, since there's little anyone can do about it.
The measures they take, no matter how thorough, can never provide total safety. Living in peace with and showing basic respect for one another would be some step in the right direction I think, possibly more efficient than invading nations, manipulating and subverting goverments and letting them escalate in civil war.
During my visits to Israel, for work or for holidays at redmuze's, I'm always impressed by the security measures that are in place all over the country. Similar situations I've seen in Belfast during Marching season, or when GWB puts his feet on the ground on our apron from time to time. I think these levels of surveillance will become more widely spread in the next years outside of these crisis zones, and people will accept them as part of their daily life. Thinking it makes them feel safer, while it may just make them all more paranoid.
In Italy, shortly after a sister company's plane crashed in apparent suspicious circumstances, I couldn't tell if the extra military guys that were securing the airfield could spell their own name correctly. Not exactly the kind of guys I would give a machine gun eh. One thing that security measures have in common wherever I've been: it's a big business of hi-tech toys, that does a great job putting down unemployment levels.
more has been done with less
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
https://soundcloud.com/at0m-studio
-
Counterparts
- Posts: 1963
- Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:00 pm
- Location: Bath, England
I'm on a ferry going to Santander in about a fortnight's time (biking 'round Europe for two and a half weeks with a friend), so it'll be interesting to see if anything's changed recently re: port security.
I've used ferries a lot in the past and have never been searched or have had to go through a metal detector etc. Besides, people drive onto them in cars/lorries/caravans etc. That's a lot of stuff to have to search!
I've used ferries a lot in the past and have never been searched or have had to go through a metal detector etc. Besides, people drive onto them in cars/lorries/caravans etc. That's a lot of stuff to have to search!
-
next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
well, after the 911 incident, all ports in norway (and thats a heck of a lot) had to put up 3m high barb-wired fences for security reasons.On 2006-08-21 06:58, Counterparts wrote:
I'm on a ferry going to Santander in about a fortnight's time (biking 'round Europe for two and a half weeks with a friend), so it'll be interesting to see if anything's changed recently re: port security.
I've used ferries a lot in the past and have never been searched or have had to go through a metal detector etc. Besides, people drive onto them in cars/lorries/caravans etc. That's a lot of stuff to have to search!
lets just hope the evil terrorists doesnt have access high tech equipment, like a ladder or some pliers.
if those security measures save 1 life,
it is worth it.
im happy to have my bag checked when i go to malls... and i do not feel it invades my privacy. if any, i get another person to greet hello on my way.
in israel we have had many security door keepers giving their lives to save hundreds.
ofcourse this is not the way to stop terror. it is a way to minimise its damage.
i also agree that this buisness like many others is run very poorly.
a person that knows well one of our big malls can sneek a pretty big bomb inside with no problem at all. but so far no bomb exploded inside our malls (just outside). does that make the averege suicide bomber an idiot? well idont think so.
i guess any person with explosives on his body would not be able to think str8 just becouse of the presure (not to mention his state of mind).
I dont use busses. yes im paranoid. you wouldnt find 1 person here in israel that doesnt know a person involved in a suicide bomber. in my case, its my brother, and a dear friend of the family.
terrorism is a symptom of a much bigger problem (im not sure how big). the way to treat the symptoms is treating the illness. untill we find a cure, we will have to settle with semi effective cocktails, that will just prolong humanities life untill it finds the solution...
Peace!
it is worth it.
im happy to have my bag checked when i go to malls... and i do not feel it invades my privacy. if any, i get another person to greet hello on my way.
in israel we have had many security door keepers giving their lives to save hundreds.
ofcourse this is not the way to stop terror. it is a way to minimise its damage.
i also agree that this buisness like many others is run very poorly.
a person that knows well one of our big malls can sneek a pretty big bomb inside with no problem at all. but so far no bomb exploded inside our malls (just outside). does that make the averege suicide bomber an idiot? well idont think so.
i guess any person with explosives on his body would not be able to think str8 just becouse of the presure (not to mention his state of mind).
I dont use busses. yes im paranoid. you wouldnt find 1 person here in israel that doesnt know a person involved in a suicide bomber. in my case, its my brother, and a dear friend of the family.
terrorism is a symptom of a much bigger problem (im not sure how big). the way to treat the symptoms is treating the illness. untill we find a cure, we will have to settle with semi effective cocktails, that will just prolong humanities life untill it finds the solution...
Peace!
It definately is big business. Yet I'll bet there are other ways to increase employment rates besides just increasing the military/industrial complex.On 2006-08-21 06:46, at0m wrote:
One thing that security measures have in common wherever I've been: it's a big business of hi-tech toys, that does a great job putting down unemployment levels.
First trial phase of an AIDS vaccineOn 2006-08-21 08:47, ReD_MuZe wrote:
come to think of it...
you know of that conspiracy story about how AIDS cure has been found already, but the companies didnt want to put it out not to kill their buisness...