Hartmann Neuron VS

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:32 am

good and interesting points, but a grain of salt remains... (imho)

On 2005-10-20 01:04, Quifster wrote:
... the neuron is fantastic but doesn't seem to justify the 700 euro price tag (which is the original price). However for 149 euro this one is a great addition to my setup. ...

what justifies a price tag at all ?
does anyone believe a handful of semiconductors (worth 30 bucks, even if manually measured for matching specs) justifies the pricetag of one of the most famous synths ever ?
A sawtooth osc isn't black magic and a cascade filter isn't either, yet noone ever mentions 'overpriced' in this context...

Since I recently aquired it, I happen to fiddle a lot with Zarg's Quantum Wave - and I can assure I could have replaced any of the Neuron's sounds in your examples with an equivalent, even in a better quality (regarding the synth engine), but that isn't the point at all

the Neuron is the first sound engine introduced to public that features a completely different way of encoding the specs of audio models

it is at least as groundbreaking as the cascade filter

you've mentioned the appeal of 'journeying through sound models' which gives you a completely different level of control - for the listener it may in fact be (no more than) a reminescence of scanning a wavetable (if one picks an isolated part).

Yet this technology is in it's very early beginnings only - it has great potential, but obviously it's as disregarded as the products of CWA in some market segments...
The true value isn't recognized or respected.

Don't get the impression I'm after dissing your purchase - no way - congrats you didn't let the opportunity pass

but there's more than a decade of studies 'behind' the Neuron's surface, and a software in a domain where you find even less coders than for MacOSX

cheers, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-10-20 05:33 ]</font>

Kymeia · Post by **Kymeia** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:29 am

Since you have both just how close are they soundwise?

I would imagine with a really fast CPU it may be that you could even get more voices than using the hardware synth (since it is basically a custom Linux PC in a keyboard right?) but I would also guess that overall soundquality is determined by the soundcard, in which case Creamware users may have an advantage. However there is also the question of how accurately the VS models or emulates what the hardware synth does.

Kymeia · Post by **Kymeia** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:26 am

Thankyou - so the hardware unit has more effects. What effects does it have that the VS doesn't? Maybe with the right efects unit/s I could get even closer. Scarbee make a wonderful keyboard multi-effects plugin I was thinking of getting for example.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:08 am

I've checked the (VSTI) demo devices on the Prosoniq website as there's some overlapping with the Neuron's processing (Prosoniq is the main developer of the engine)
very pleasing results imho - much better than I had expected from the mags examples and sound demos.

cheers, Tom

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:46 pm

On 2005-10-26 14:01, stardust wrote:
On 2005-10-20 05:32, astroman wrote:

Since I recently aquired it, I happen to fiddle a lot with Zarg's Quantum Wave - and I can assure I could have replaced any of the Neuron's sounds in your examples with an equivalent, even in a better quality (regarding the synth engine),

...and I honestly doubt that.
Not because i disregard John Bowens extraordinary synth design capabilities,
Not because I dont believe in your mastership in sound design,.....

On 2005-10-20 05:32, astroman wrote:
...Since I recently aquired it, I happen to fiddle a lot with Zarg's Quantum Wave - and I can assure I could have replaced any of the Neuron's sounds in your examples with an equivalent, even in a better quality (regarding the synth engine), but that isn't the point at all

the Neuron is the first sound engine introduced to public that features a completely different way of encoding the specs of audio models

it is at least as groundbreaking as the cascade filter...

THAT is the proper quote - and WHY do you think I wrote some letters in boldface ???
... btw it continues fairly similiar to your arguments.

cheers, Tom

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: astroman on 2005-10-26 18:49 ]</font>

valis · Post by **valis** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:01 pm

http://www.hartmann-music.com/home/de/news/

valis · Post by **valis** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:51 pm

My german isn't so hot so I didn't bother trying to translate it for people. For those that can't read german at all, apparently the original 'sale' price for the VS was due to Hartmann owing the actual manufacturer of the product some money, and not having the funds on hand to pay immediately. So rather than going through legal proceedings the manufacturer seems to have sold the units directly and kept the proceeds to cover the debt. Not very legal, and it not only voilates normal means of contractual dispute, it also has probably saturated the market in that region for sales of legitimate stock still in other stores (hence the other stores offering similar price deals to keep units moving).

Agree with astroman's opinions above too, not good at all.

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 1:39 am

right Valis, that's more or less the story...
obviously the unauthorized 'sellout' was performed even though negotiations about the return of the debt were ongoing, according to Hartmann with reasonable prospects of success.

nevertheless this action broke down the complete sales infrastructure, as other distributors weren't amused at all to see an end-user price below what they'd to pay Hartmann.

we all know that once a product hits market at a certain rate, you'll never gonna raise that 'mark' up again, so Stardust is completely on the wrong track with his assumptions about 'greedy sales departments'.
Which also applies to the 'generation iPod', as those folks are known to pay for their stuff... regardless if they honor the idea because it's cool or because it's technically superior

we've a tech supermarket chain in Germany who's slogan is 'avarice is gorgeous', and eventually this attitude will have consequences with a much deeper impact than the breakdown of a synth company.

though with a grain of salt, it's at least some comfort that those buyers who speculated to fiddle with the Neuron for a month and then resell it with some profit are f*cked up now...

also not amuzed at all, Tom

Shroomz~> · Post by **Shroomz~>** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 6:57 am

I've always thought 'quality is best', but there seems to be an ever increasing lean towards 'cheap is best' which seems like a real shame from many many viewpoints. I mean say you're a synth developer like Hartman. What platform do you look at?? The most powerfull? The most suitable? The one with the biggest user base? The one with the best developers? The one which is easily disguised? The cheapest? Surely not the cheapest?

astroman · Post by **astroman** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:08 am

On 2005-10-28 05:09, stardust wrote:
...Dont tell me that a musicstore did not know what they are doing.
This is what I call greedy.
...

But in the consequence I dont see the difference between being driven by 'cheap is best' or 'brand is best' instead of 'music is best'. In this case both collided and killed the value chain, hopefully not Hartmann Music.

now it's my turn to have misunderstood you...

you have a valid point there - for some obscure reason I forgot that Musicstore was a contractor of Hartman, too

on your last statement I'm not so optimistic - for me the madonna on Hartmann's page looks more like RIP than 'pray that it goes on'...

cheers, Tom