Nails in the Coffin

[garyb]

WE don't need to cut down. the top part of society needs to cut down. THEY are the greedy ones. Al Gore has a $60,000 electrical bill on just ONE of his properties.

[darkrezin]

Peak oil is a sham? With the current insane rate of usage? Would be interested to see a reference for that.

[dawman]

WE don't need to cut down. the top part of society needs to cut down. THEY are the greedy ones. Al Gore has a $60,000 electrical bill on just ONE of his properties.

Yes but Al has decided to start Jet pooling now. He has 2 or 3 people on his flights instead of flying by himself when he travels the Globe collecting cash to save the Planet.
They love Al up in Alaska.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2010/01 ... oversy.php

[siriusbliss]

Peak oil is a sham? With the current insane rate of usage? Would be interested to see a reference for that.

Internal Chevron memo:
"A senior energy analyst at the recent API convention warned that if the US petroleum industry doesn't reduce its refining capacity it will never see any substantial increase in refinery margins."

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/ ... ryId=13506
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/peakoilindex.shtml
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47675
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00275.html

...and I guess I'll have to dig up the graphs showing the huge reserves sitting under Grenada (remember invasion of Grenada?)...

lesson is that false scarcity equals higher profits, including Chevrons' record profits the past two years.

Greg

[valis]

Another lesson is that Global Warming and Peak Oil are based on specific THEORIES about how the climate works and how oil "was created." Scientifically a theory is 'tested' by peer review to see how well it fits or describes the data that you see. However just because a theory 'seems' to work for a given set of data, there are a myriad number of reason why the theory could be incomplete or even wrong when a different (larger) perspective is taken into account. Climate is cyclical, very complex and interrelated, and non-repeating (NOT a sine-wave). Though the cycles are 'self-similar' enough to identify seasons and do basic predictions on temp, and anyone with even a fundamental understanding of weather knows that predicting trends a week out is not always accurate, to think that our theories (which don't even account for cloud cover accurately let alone the butterflies) can somehow accurately predict something 100 years ahead when we can't tell how cold or warm the next season will be accurately is...quite odd imo.

One of the arguments my buddies in the oil industry (I know a few from living in Texas) will give for Peak Oil (as an example) is "how can our theories on oil be WRONG, we always find oil exactly where we expect it and it runs out too!" (I almost add 'when we want it to'.) And yet those who "believe" in abiotic oil (Russia & Northern China) also seem to have the ability to use their theories to 'find' oil underground as well. Of course my Texan buddies will turn around and say "but they don't even drill for their own oil that much, look at how much they rely on the reserves of other nations" as if somehow we don't. I don't think I've ever seen a discussion musing on what might be afoot that allows two diametrically opposed arguments 'fit' the same 'data', the debate is always about which "belief" (and I do think in many case it's a belief by prejudice of "it working") is assuredly rediculous.

Seems an awful lot like the 'climate debate' to me: completely polarized and utilized by a number of different agendas to the point where the whole discussion has polarized into a few camps that spend more time defending a handful of highly simplified talking points that don't even necessarily have anything to do with the initial concerns. For instance Carbon Credits don't "solve" pollution, they simply "tax" pollution in the hopes that that somehow 'solves' things via economic pressures. Of course there's a rationale which can explain how that can 'help solve' the problem (that it should translate into us 'buying less stuff' that is carbon-related), but there's already enough evidence to show that most of the worst offenders just use the carbon credits via trading to continue business as usual. It doesn't even take into account the massive amounts of waste and overproduction we have in our consumer sector for plastic bits of nonsense that are made solely for profit, let alone the fact that we have massive amounts of waste in our food production etc as well. Can't dump electronics waste in the US? We'll just ship it off to the poorest region of some other nation to deal with (where they're poor enough to welcome the opportunity to sift through scraps for a small return in the immediate future.) I have yet to see anything in any of the G-X meetings that addresses how to reduce the size of the plastic island in the Pacific directly (now presumably larger than Texas.)

Something that disturbs me a bit more is finding the same names behind the 'Carbon Tax' in the US were also behind some of the retirement fund/investment fund scandals in the "dot com" bust (transferrence of wealth imo) and again in the "mortgage bust" (yet more transferrence of wealth, often even using the same retirement and investment funds again.) Flip it over to the 'conservative' side and you have a lot of dismissing of environmental concerns as 'socialism' and 'anti-capitalism' yet meanwhile these are the same folks profiting off of wars which we fund for a minor return in natural resources (spending 10 billion a month of taxpayer money on Iraq to yield $500mill in return for their pockets for instance, not to mention the lucrative construction profits and the never ending need for military/industrial machinery to be used up.)

I'm concerned that people lump 'the government' together into some singular entity to both prop up and dismiss 'conspiracy' theories, as if the 'whole gubment' was party to the decision to do irradiation testing on troops and the american populate in the past, or as if 'the gubment' somehow collectively decides to do random LSD testing on troops, as if everyone in 'the gubment' collectively let our fleet sit in Pearl Harbor when there was potential evidence that the Japanese fleet was amassed closer to us than they should have been, and as if all of our national servants all collectively and unanimously decided to use each environmental and health concern to create more ways to profit. I do care that there's many places I can't fish for my personal food, and that the food I'm supposed to 'trust' from the store more and more comes from large corporate ownership which is both subject to large-scale health issues (E. Coli etc) and has less interest in how healthy our food is than in how marketable it is. Corruption and 'normalization' of corrupt practices doesn't happen by singular unanimous consent, it happens slowly and over time (hence the normalization of what would otherwise be objectionable) and via corruption in individuals who are in the right place at the right time. In the case of things like irradiating troops, there is even some 'sense' to the rationale behind inhumane acts, after all how can we know how horrible skinning someone's house-cat is (or their cattle) if we haven't actually tried it yet?

[valis]

...and I guess I'll have to dig up the graphs showing the huge reserves sitting under Grenada (remember invasion of Grenada?)...

Exactly the reason we're so focused on Central and South America as the 'next' region of interest (once we're done with Turkmenistan etc.) Also why our CIA is seemingly always involved in insuring that the 'destabilized' nations in Central america stay in turmoil.

lesson is that false scarcity equals higher profits, including Chevrons' record profits the past two years.

Exactly. The same people who poo-poo Carbon Credits and Being Green as 'liberal/socialist profiteering' turn around and support theories that prop up their own bottom line.

Now this isn't to say that increased production isn't a concern, both in terms of consumption vs. demand and its environmental impact. But it's funny that the Oil barons can be so 'conservative' about the environment when it comes to building new refineries to increase supply, suddenly environmentalists have a 'win' on their hands and we have the same slow increase in production/refinery capacity that we've seen for 30+ years in the US. Nuclear plants are equally bad, and alternative energy sources are either so laughed out of the court of public inquiry by being too 'kooky' and 'fringe' that noone in their right mind would pursue them (Tesla was one kooky himself I think) or being too inefficient and 'polluting' themselves. Solar Panels for instance, as they've not had the amount of investment necessary to solve all the issues that budding industries face but only make progress during times of artificial scarcity (the 70's and now a few years in the 00's.) I have friends who have invested in 'green' energy programs in times when costs are rising, and they've told me that they could swear that each time the costs rise just enough that alternative energy sources start to look appealing to investors, and once headway is being made the costs for 'traditional' energy sources fall just enough to undermine investor interest thus stagnating any entrepreneurs that don't have a firm footing yet.

[garyb]

oil is carbon, oxygen and hydrogen. under high pressure and heat, like very deep within the earth, oil is formed. water+carbon(some of the most plentiful substances on earth)=petroleum. it can be made in the lab and it is made in the earth. most is not "fossil fuel". it may not be endless, but it tends to replenish. many oilfields once thought dead are once again full....

still, that is no reason to be wasteful and dirty about things.

-btw, it's Al Gore's family's company(Continental Petroleum) that has developed much of South America's petroleum resources....scratch the surface of a green NGO and find the same bankers that control the oil resources and oil companies(!) themselves.

[siriusbliss]

And Bushie bought a ton of land in Paraguay (I think).

Is he worried about being expatriated?

Well, again...sorry Europe....I didn't have enough credits to sell, and my own family was cold and hungry, and I REALLY wanted to watch football on my big screen, but Schwarzenegger won't let me have one, so I had to DRIVE to the local sports bar/pub to watch the games <sarcasm mode off>

Wow, what's going to happen when everyone suddenly wakes up?

Greg

[dawman]

OMG in the Soviet State of California more than 1 Beer is an excuse to be arrested and charged for a DUI. The Police actually watch for people leaving bars since they don't really want to arrest criminals, that's much harder than snagging a working middle class American who'll gladly pay the fine so he won't lose his job.
But whatever you do don't light up a cigarette or even think about having bar snacks that could have Trans Fat that's illegal too.
Are the politicians purposely trying to bancrupt all businesses..?
We can't even keep up with the Bulding demand here in Nevada from all the Businesses fleeing the high taxation and new laws that nobody seems to ever get to vote on.
I have never seen such a beautiful state that has so much going for it have the politicians continuosly destroy all possibilities to get ahead.
They should have a sign at San Isidro that says " Break Our Laws, And We Will Reward You. Abide by the laws and we will tax you into poverty and bancrupcy. "
Even the farmers had their water cut off because of a stupid 2 inch guppy that number in the billions in the delta by Stockton, CA.
Before I die I pray that the citizens take back thier State from these suicidal maniacs that have ruined it's Pioneer Spirit.

[braincell]

It was beautiful before the casinos. People have no business building cities where there is not enough water. The snail darters were there millions of years before you were. Native Americans somehow were able to live with them without making them go extinct! The Colorado river used to empty into the gulf of Mexico. Now it runs dry before it reaches that point. For shame! This is a disgrace! Las Vegas is a cesspool of ignorant a-holes! Who cares if a bunch of hedonistic self-indulgent jerks get pestered by the police? They probably deserve it. I have seen your city on the television show "Cops". It is very entertaining.

What are zip lock snack bags designed for? I'll give you a hint, they are not for snacks.

[iSiStOy]

as if all of our national servants all collectively and unanimously decided to use each environmental and health concern to create more ways to profit

Carbon taxes have been created for just the purpose of being a new market to invest in.

I have friends who have invested in 'green' energy programs in times when costs are rising, and they've told me that they could swear that each time the costs rise just enough that alternative energy sources start to look appealing to investors, and once headway is being made the costs for 'traditional' energy sources fall just enough to undermine investor interest thus stagnating any entrepreneurs that don't have a firm footing yet.

Goldmann Sucks and consort were also pointed out as being directly involved in the incredible fluctuations in petrol and food prices during 2008, creating famine as speculating for more money. Isn't it cynical?

[valis]

as if all of our national servants all collectively and unanimously decided to use each environmental and health concern to create more ways to profit

Carbon taxes have been created for just the purpose of being a new market to invest in.

Of course I agree about the new market ripe for 'speculation' (Carbon taxes.) My point was that attempting to ascribe such things to "the gubmet" (or conservatives/commies etc) is extremely oversimplified to the point of being silly.

[garyb]

as if all of our national servants all collectively and unanimously decided to use each environmental and health concern to create more ways to profit

Carbon taxes have been created for just the purpose of being a new market to invest in.

Of course I agree about the new market ripe for 'speculation' (Carbon taxes.) My point was that attempting to ascribe such things to "the gubmet" (or conservatives/commies etc) is extremely oversimplified to the point of being silly.

the gubmet is a tool. when one person owns 1/6th of the land of the earth, it's easy to see where the controlling interests lie. there is one family in charge of all the money. hmmm, what would you do if you were in that position....

we are allowed our little charades of governments and institutions(at the grove, they call public governing behaviors "hijinks"), but the important decisions are made in private.

[dawman]

It was beautiful before the casinos. People have no business building cities where there is not enough water. The snail darters were there millions of years before you were. Native Americans somehow were able to live with them without making them go extinct! The Colorado river used to empty into the gulf of Mexico. Now it runs dry before it reaches that point. For shame! This is a disgrace! Las Vegas is a cesspool of ignorant a-holes! Who cares if a bunch of hedonistic self-indulgent jerks get pestered by the police? They probably deserve it. I have seen your city on the television show "Cops". It is very entertaining.
What are zip lock snack bags designed for? I'll give you a hint, they are not for snacks.

http://wsoweb.ladwp.com/Aqueduct/histor ... oriver.htm
I usually ignore copy and pasted quotes from you, but when you spread dissinformation and lies I must respond.
Perhaps you can concentrate long enough to read more than a single sentance of an article before you spew your usual distorions and falsehoods.

Since I am a lover of the outdoors and wildlife, I despise what dams have done to the migration of fish. Back in 1933 they didn't know these things or they would have included some type of migratory assistance as they use in Oregon and Washington.

Thanks to couch Potatoes like you these staged Police shows are keeping LasVegas's name in the public eye.
Record numbers for New Years and CES this year too.
Thankfully most American and European travellers don't share your acidic views and outbursts.
I would love for you to share some of the ways that you make the world a better place.

For the sake of truth. Mulholland basically destroyed the Owens River Valley with his aquaduct and then looked west to the Colorado. The Hoover Dam sends the normal flow of water south to the Sea of Cortez, it goes dry due to SoCal's tap water and farm water requirements.
Saudi Arabia has American made desalination plants and there's no reason California couldn't convert over to these in time. The tap water for SoCal is the biggest drain on the Colorado though, so in time maybe Nancy Pelosi and her Billionaire friends can fix this instead of building a 54 million dollar train that leads to her Winery with the " stimulus " funds.

[braincell]

The climate change deniers are similar to holocaust deniers. Here is what this reminds me of:

You are driving on an icy road going very slowly and someone passes you at the normal speed. A couple miles down the road, you see that person has crashed into a ditch and you laugh.

The only problem is that with global warming, we are all in the same boat!

[garyb]

how scary!

...and how disgusting to make such a comparison so casually and with so little actual knowledge...

[Me$$iah]

never mind the idiot mixing of metaphors....


Is the boat in a ditch at the roadside?????

[FrancisHarmany]

The climate change deniers are similar to holocaust deniers. Here is what this reminds me of:

You are driving on an icy road going very slowly and someone passes you at the normal speed. A couple miles down the road, you see that person has crashed into a ditch and you laugh.

The only problem is that with global warming, we are all in the same boat!

Its an Arch dude.... we go to an Arch before the floods.

[Mr Arkadin]

The climate change deniers are similar to holocaust deniers.

Wow, you bought into the agenda's specious rhetoric hook line and sinker copying a phrase like that. This is how governments like to win arguments, not by showing us the facts (they can't - they've all been massaged re:climategate), but by using impassioned language which is easily repeated by the proles: "Just make them look like Jew haters and no-one will want to be associated with them."

How about if they had a good argument they wouldn't need to use language like that?

And you know what? Even if i believed all the climate arguments 100% i still wouldn't deny anyone the free right to argue the other side, otherwise science stands still and rests on its laurels.

[braincell]

Global warming *is* scary. There is a psychological reason why so many people are not concerned with it and that is because we haven't evolved to be afraid of this type of a problem. An example of this psychology is if girl is drowning in a lake, you would be likely to jump in and save her but if someone asks you to spend $1,000 to save a girl dying on the other side of the planet, the chance of you saving her would be less likely.