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if guncontrol were instituted now in america, all hell would break loose. the good people would be helpless as they'd be the only ones to disarm. we are not like your average european country which is mostly one tribe. there's a lot of conflict...it's not caused by guns, nor is it exasperated by guns.

@ Petal
My conclusion was, the barrier of what's acceptable has already been passed
Above a certain level of violence in a statistical way, the desire for personal defend at all costs will win.
It seemed to me that that level has reached already.
Which is sad, as it will take some (tenth's or more) years to improve things.
Anyway, I leave it further to the invited ones

garyb wrote:there's a lot of conflict...it's not caused by guns, nor is it exasperated by guns.

A democratic society is supposed to eliminate (social) conflicts (or class struggles, as I would name even racial conflicts).
Guns principally don't support this idea, to say the least

garyb wrote:there's a lot of conflict...it's not caused by guns, nor is it exasperated by guns.

A democratic society is supposed to eliminate (social) conflicts (or class struggles, as I would name even racial conflicts).
Guns principally don't support this idea, to say the least

c'mon now, you guys just export your violence because you're all dutch or german or french or norwegian. no point i killing your own family... the "immigrants" know a different world, however.

All European countries have growing population of second generation 'immigrants', with a lot of problems.
Not much of jobs for those relatively unskilled kids, together with the import of drugs related scenes from 'immigrants' that are coming from the Dutch Antilles.
if the news programs show a map of Holland with all moskees on it, 'we' are amased it's that far already... (hundreds of hundreds).

The theme of criminality and social problems in relation to more or less deprived minorities dominates the public debate for years already, at least since the murder of Pim Fortuyn in what was it, 2001?, and don't forget the burning suburbs in Paris/france.
It will take years for sure, but the problems are taken seriously by politicians.
44 'big city' districts are choosen these days as most urgent to improve.
A lot of gouvernmental mony has determined to go to those areas (accommodation improvement, environments, unemployment programs, socio-economic composition per district, district coherency, etc.).
We just have hardly more than 20 'big cities', but all is relative to the national scale, as is the mony.

At least politics can't and don't deny the problem here.
"We don't want American conditions' is a winged verb here that is supposed to do the message.
I don't wanne look like saying 'we -as opposed to you- do better', I just wanne say I still have hope that we, on earth, slowly do better

would love to have you as a guest here Gary, you would be pleased, at least with the girls, who are armed anyway, as you'll know
now don't say, sounds killing to me

hubird wrote:A democratic society is supposed to eliminate (social) conflicts (or class struggles, as I would name even racial conflicts).
Guns principally don't support this idea, to say the least

a democratic society is just mob rule. conflicts are eliminated by force. a democratic society is just like a dictatorship if you can control the mob.

what tempers that is a republic. it 's a bad sign when politicians speak of "building bridges" or "consensus" . what the american republic is about is gridlock. a system where it's very difficult for the mob to unjustly impose on the individual or minority. a mess where no one can get the upper hand. this keeps everybodies bad ideas from being actualized. unfortunately the republic is dead and the dark lord of the sith is ready to ascend his throne....

hubird wrote:All European countries have growing population of second generation 'immigrants', with a lot of problems............would love to have you as a guest here Gary, you would be pleased, at least with the girls, who are armed anyway, as you'll know
now don't say, sounds killing to me

first, yes, i know your country is very nice and i'm certain i'd love visiting, or even living there a long while! as to the girls, well i can only look.

about the immigrant thing, the problem with the immigrants is that they are colonised peoples with gripes and grievances and that they are not dutch. they have no appreciation for the long struggle the dutch(deutch?) people have gone through to be the nice people they are today. on the other hand, it's hard for the dutch to appreciate the struggle that the immigrants have been through when the immigrants seem to be a little hostile and start making a mess, like it's not their home, too...

the point is america is all groups like that. even the natives are immigrants in some crazy way. this is a source of much conflict and misunderstanding. this is what makes america dangerous, not the guns.

gary,

it's not my intent to attack you or the us, but do you think the us are still the land of the free or should the national anthem be changed somehow?

btw, if you're around switzerland, let me know, would be glad to show you some swiss secrets, no, not weapons this offer applies to all planetz members of course

greez
roman

brother, it's world government.
i still love my home. it has it's problems, but it has it's good side, too...
i'd love to see your country, of course!
don't worry. i do most of my killing with an axe(that's strat shaped)...

@ Gary
Someone in an earlier post mentioned that Chicago has guncontrol. Has all hell broken loose there all ready, as you describe in your answer to what will happen if gunctrolled were introduced into american society?

garyb wrote:a democratic society is just mob rule. conflicts are eliminated by force. a democratic society is just like a dictatorship if you can control the mob.

I probably offend somebody now, but with "your" democracy over there (the winner takes it all), I do understand your opinion.


Still, we are probably slowly heading in the direction of the same kind of power abuse problems over here. With the EU, the power of the few gets bigger. Also, more cultures will have to live with the same rules. This will create bigger minorities (in the counts of millions) who will be living under rules not fit for their culture.

Thankfully, Norway is still there, if Europe (EU) goes to crazy ...

Someone in an earlier post mentioned that Chicago has guncontrol.

I can tell you that Chicago certainly does have plenty of crime, and plenty of shootings despite the ban on guns.

I can also tell you that not too long ago a guy got busted becuase he had the audacity to use his hand gun to save a little girls life as she was being mauled by a pit bull.
He shot the dog. Then the cops said "Hey wait a second.. you arent supposed to have that gun!"

YAY for gun control!

I don't think that any people pro guncontrol think that "crime" will dissappear if the guncontrol is introduced in the US. It's the the killings we are trying to avoid with guncontrol. Also I don't think that anyone think that the effect would happen over night, propably years, maybe even generations. The point is that the end goal is that the numbers of legal and illegal guns needs to go down instead of up.

I think that absurd examples, like the one with the pittbull, can be found in all aspects of life and society.

I do however also recognize the demographic and historical differences between Europe and the US. One of the main differences between Denmark and the US is propably the the socio/economical differences. I believe that having a good social security system ensures more security in a society, because even poor people simply aren't that desperate.
In Denmark every single citizen have the possibilty to get a free higher education, in my case a university degree. Every single citizen, regardless of how rich or poor your parents are, have the chance to get a good education for free if they choose to.

Which makes me wonder how your society would look like if the US spent more money on educating people instead of having the "biggest gun" in the world.

manfriday wrote:

Someone in an earlier post mentioned that Chicago has guncontrol.

I can tell you that Chicago certainly does have plenty of crime, and plenty of shootings despite the ban on guns.

I can also tell you that not too long ago a guy got busted becuase he had the audacity to use his hand gun to save a little girls life as she was being mauled by a pit bull.
He shot the dog. Then the cops said "Hey wait a second.. you arent supposed to have that gun!"

YAY for gun control!

that's why in switzerland (and also germany i think) there's a lot discussions going on if some breed of dog should be forbidden by law or at least the holder has to past a test to get a permission to hold this dog...

for me this example has nothing to do with gun control but dog control

cheers
roman

btw. i loooove simpons

and now you know why americans dont have dinner plates..

As I said, absurd examples can always be found

chicago is a hell hole with lovely areas for the priviledged just like london, paris, moscow, washington dc, los angeles, or fallujah.

i keep telling you, most warfare and killing is inter-tribal. people tend to take care of their own at other's expense. poverty is tribal warfare. if you have a nation of immigrants, tribal competition will continue and the place will be violent. this is by design. the ultimate tribal warfare is a class one.

most of the best guns are currently made in eurpoe.............

the simpsons is funny!
the simpsons is new world order propaganda, although later in the episode, marge finds she loves the gun after she foils a qwikee mart robbery...