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The elite dominate only being able to make a fool of the people and acquiring anyhow its assent.
It can't go too much against people wishes. But it can drive these wishes or make anyhow its way around these wishes in a hidden way.
Are you sure anything can't be done to hinder the manipulation, to highlight the dark sides?
Yes this may carry temporary disdvantages to the everyday life of the people, this may carry crisis, but as I often hear around in these days, doesn't crisis brings to improvements? As it could be implied in the meaning of this ancient greek word, actually.

crisis brings change which is always hailed as an improvement. unfortunately, sometimes it is an improvement, sometimes not.

of course the manipulation can be hindered and of course evil can be highlighted and pointed out! isn't the conversation about "making the world a better place", in this case through the bully pulpit of music?

Cochise wrote:

garyb wrote:
things are what they are. no need to be upset about it.

Sometimes things are what we all let them to be. I'm not sure this is anyway also pertinent with the nichilism concept, but probably it is.

We can constantly be upset against things dominating us of course, since it's a chance of illness.
There are many ways: irony is a way; to let them be till we're again strong enough to face them is another, and many others ways exists..

EDITED: Sorry, I've intended to wrote: We CAN'T costantly be upset.....

yeah, i was speaking about the conversation, but of course it applies to life as well. actually, there ARE things worth being upset about, if that can motivate to proper action. in the case i was mentioning, "upset" wasn't the proper reaction because there was nothing to be upset about, no crime committed.

garyb wrote:of course the manipulation can be hindered and of course evil can be highlighted and pointed out! isn't the conversation about "making the world a better place", in this case through the bully pulpit of music?

We already discussed about this, sometimes in threads opened having a more far subject.

Although the rockstar character is often painted very far from the common sense of the morality, the protest, the accusation in music have got some space (I think it had more in the past). Yes it haven't got a great credibility to the masses...
Right ideas expressed in the right way have anyway their power, though.

@ LiquidLen: I'm not completely sure tolerance implies not tolerating intolerance

Anyway, it ain't just on or off state...

Does anyone believe in magic here?

Liquid Len wrote:

garyb wrote:i just think all this intellectualization is just masturbation.

When rational thought is able to defend your theories, then it's "facts that can't be changed". When it doesn't, then the whole process of logical thinking is thrown out because it is too limited to describe the supernatural, or something. You can't have it both ways. Or put another way, what makes your arguments accurate description of reality, and your opponents' mere intellectualism?

Not necesarily relating to the supernatural, but logical thinking can only go so far. We can only logically think about the known, and so whether it is supernatural or not, at some point we have to stop thinking about it, and actually venture out. There defnitely are things that can be logically figured out, versus things that need physical venturing. You cannot map out a cave by just thinking about. You cannot save a drowning man by just thinking about the solution. I think there is a time to intellectualize about things, but there is also a time to stop, and to put them into practice. Deskwork, field work. Two different things, very simple.

I am more on the logical side of things, but I hate it when it gets in the way. Usually, the most logical thing to do with an unkown is to either gather more information about it, or to avoid it as a way of maintaining safety. (and some others, I'm sure) In some contexts, that is correct, but risk taking usually comes at the bottom of the list.

What if you must take the risk? At the forefront of things, there is usually a lot of risk taking, and not too much logical thinking. Most of whatever is logical, are usually broken in to steps, and practiced to memorization, so that deduction on the spot is not necessary. (emergency first response, for example) If you sit there and think, most likely your reaction will be too late. In scuba diving, you plan the dive, and dive the plan. If you plan while you dive, you may end up dead.

It may be that I feel a strong sense of urgency because I'm in NY, where all sorts of social neglegence and social hypocracy is painfully evident. True my motivation is partially contextual, but hey, it's better than sitting back and just letting it slide. Though I do think that other places in the world (or in the US) do not give rise to such sense of urgency because things usually tend to not slide this far down the hill. I frankly think that it isn't often one comes accross a place in such mess.

the sad thing is that it's not accidental.

kensuguro wrote:We can only logically think about the known,

The limitations of logical thinking are not in the object but in the method. You can think logically about everything your fantasy brings out and have a non-logical mental activity on known things, like it often happens because of an emotional impact that even common things can have.
It all comes down to our desires and wishes, to our necessities. Are you seeking practical or emotional advantages? And what do you need and what makes feel you well? Here the responses can be pretty different, although a similar anthropology brings similar results.
When one field invades the other there is a loss of equilibrium, like those who avoid to fall in love or try to find the future in tarots or astrology.

well, that's theory, isn't it?

alfonso wrote: ..It all comes down to our desires and wishes, to our necessities. Are you seeking practical or emotional advantages? And what do you need and what makes feel you well? ..

Although the bipolarism is quite dominant, I don't think one thing totally excludes the other..
Isn't the easiest way to go, but why might I not look for both practical AND emotional advantages?
Alfonso, using Italian language I should add: nella misura in cui è possibile coniugarli.
Usually it's possible to translate Italian phrases into English using less words. Sometimes it's not true...
Looks like I can't use the word 'measure' directly here and 'insofar as' don't express the mix concept as I would like...

garyb wrote:well, that's theory, isn't it?

Like water is H2O, bro.....

Cochise wrote:

alfonso wrote: ..It all comes down to our desires and wishes, to our necessities. Are you seeking practical or emotional advantages? And what do you need and what makes feel you well? ..

Although the bipolarism is quite dominant, I don't think one thing totally excludes the other..

Yes, it shouldn't.......it shouldn't.....

Right, probably anyone can't get the maximum of both practical and emotional, but I could feel happy with some of both...

Om!

stardust wrote:

Cochise wrote:Does anyone believe in magic here?

Yes. Magic is there.
There are things that are not explainable and happening.

So the more ignorant one is the more magic he experiences?

stardust wrote:At least there are more triggers to see magic.

I dont believe here is less magic when you think you know more. It probably lies in other things, other views to the same thing.

Too abstract ?

The more I learned about music the more I realized that the magic of my favorite music cannot be analyzed to the end.

Regarding science and nature the sensation of magic is probably produced when we change the perspective from how limited we are to how extraordinary is what we don't understand. It's like our mind has some difficulty to accept to be incapable of an explanation and pulls out whatever rabbit comes out of the topper, even inventing supernatural realities.

Different thing is what we call magic because of the pleasure and the abandon of our mind to love or beauty, but in this case we are the magicians because we drive our mind deep inside our senses, out of any abstraction.

Though music can be related to magic, at an ancestral level, since it has been, and still is used in rituals.
I somehow believe in magic; it helps me to make live again my ancestral istinct.
I don't use it to explain anything, though.

today's knowledge is tomorrow's fairytale...

in many places(Jamaica for example) they call voodoo "science".


Scientists(high level) are mostly into magic. for a famous example, Jack Parsons, the founder of Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena California and inventor of the fuel for the Saturn V rocket, was Aleister Crowley's right hand man, Crowley's(the king of ritual magic in his day) top guy in the USA. he definitely believed in magic and was involved in some very strange doings with Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard. this is very well documented, both at the time and since. many of Einstein's theories are extracted from Kabala, by his own admission(E=MC2).

it's easy to believe in authorities who know and blithley explain in such a plausible manner. yes! the ultimate knowledge is almost within your grasp! soon you shall be like unto God!

sorry, just some fun.

You don't need to believe in magic to enjoy a magical feeling which is good enough at times I think.