here it goes again

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garyb
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Re: here it goes again

Post by garyb »

you are so right.
chriskorff
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Re: here it goes again

Post by chriskorff »

This shit makes me so angry.

"The West" bleats on about terrorism like it has some kind of monopoly on a sense of right and wrong, but answer me this: where the fuck is the moral distinction between crashing a plane into a skyscraper because you believe the people in there are 'evil', and bombing a school and (incidentally) killing children because you believe that there are people in the building who are 'evil'? I honestly don't think there is one.

It's the hypocrisy in the international political community that really gets me though. Bush labels (the democratically elected, unlike some leaders) Hamas as terrorists, but refuses to condemn the outrageously disproportionate military response from Isreal. Yet when it's a 'friend' of the West (or, more accurately, an enemy of the enemy of the West) that bears the brunt, as in South Ossetia, condemnations for 'the little guy' abound.

'Terrorism' is a word that describes the military actions of countries whose agendas contradict your own. That's all there is to it.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by chriskorff »

ReD_MuZe wrote:regarding "humanitarian aid" - israel is taking care of it. it has to, its part of the geneva convention, and they are being ultra careful now not to crush the "consensus" in the west about this action.
Is the Isreali government acknowledging a humanitarian crisis now? I have to say I haven't read the news today, but the last soundbyte I heard from Tzipi Livni sounded suspiciously like denial...

And regarding Western consensus, I actually think that, among other things, this was a last-ditch effort to undermine Hamas while the rubber stamp in Washington is still valid. (Not to mention the votes it'll win in the upcoming Isreali elections...)

Cheers,

Chris

PS I'm pretty sure Isreal are already in breach of the Geneva Conventions.
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garyb
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Re: here it goes again

Post by garyb »

btw Chris, 911 was an inside job.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by next to nothing »

...but that's another discussion :)
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Re: here it goes again

Post by siriusbliss »

garyb wrote:btw Chris, 911 was an inside job.
no kidding...


G
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

chriskorff wrote:This shit makes me so angry.

"The West" bleats on about terrorism like it has some kind of monopoly on a sense of right and wrong, but answer me this: where the fuck is the moral distinction between crashing a plane into a skyscraper because you believe the people in there are 'evil', and bombing a school and (incidentally) killing children because you believe that there are people in the building who are 'evil'? I honestly don't think there is one.
there is a BIG difference between killing thousands of innocent people just to prove a point, and killing 40 people in a tragic mistake / killing 40 people in war / killing 40 people because they are launching missiles at you - select one. there is a BIG difference.
hamas is not palestine, and hamas is not comparable to israel.
and you know what? im not afraid to say that i believe the west - especially the secular side - has higher and more progressed moral values, if it weren't the case this war would have claimed thousands of lived daily like most wars before they were being covered by the media. you guys forget that the hamas killed many more than 500 of its own people in the koo 3 years ago, in much less days. the world was silent then.
It's the hypocrisy in the international political community that really gets me though. Bush labels (the democratically elected, unlike some leaders) Hamas as terrorists, but refuses to condemn the outrageously disproportionate military response from Isreal. Yet when it's a 'friend' of the West (or, more accurately, an enemy of the enemy of the West) that bears the brunt, as in South Ossetia, condemnations for 'the little guy' abound.

'Terrorism' is a word that describes the military actions of countries whose agendas contradict your own. That's all there is to it.
well yes. they support war not peace. to them peace will come when we are dead. hamas is not comparable to israel. if you want to support the cause of peace give your support to abu mazen from the fatah (PLO) your support not the hamas.

however you are right in one thing: terrorizing others on account of terrorism is just as bad as terrorism itself, and this is exactly the part that makes people like you consider that israel gvmt is comparable to the hamas - and i dont blame you. its is a low, low level of comunication, one that never brings any good.

i agree that bombing that school is WAY BEYOND any proportion to what has happened.
You have to realize one thing: our army is not as orginized as it seems. those are poison minded teens with guns (19 year olds) that have yet to have formed a view on the world, and are ordered to kill. i think this picture sais it all:
Image
nevermind the soldier look at the person holding him, and the photograper in the bg - they seem to know alot more than he does. he seems like an instrument in their hands...

This is one of the soldiers wounded from our own fire - 5 were killed 20 were injured, when a tank bombed an abandoned house - while soldiers were hiding in it.

War is unfortunately all about casualties, caos, errors, unneeded deaths, and so on.
it will always deepen the hate of the gazans twards israel. but this is not the case with all of the palestinians.
yes, there are ralies, yes they are very angry, and some stones are thrown, they are trying to stop the war, but there is no new intefada no riots, on the contrary, it seems that the fatah has done a good job in those 3 years in developing the teritories, and suply democratic instruments to deal with the problem - donations for the needed in gaza, big demonstrations in the territories and inside israel ( in tel aviv the palestinian demonstration against the war was much bigger than the one pro war, and there was no violence on the anti war side! )

while some people get more frustrated from the war, others are starting to understand that peace is the only way.
israel is here to stay.
so is palestine.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

not that i believe any of the sides but it seems that israel is "filing a complaint" to the UN about the school,
they claim that they bombed outside the schoolyard, and killed several missile launchers, they say that the hamas are hiding the details of the incident, and that IDF is not the one to strike the school itself (they supplied some footages of the targeting of the missile launcher truck outside of the school) insinuating that either it was staged, or the hamas did the killing himself.

i dont know who to belive, i dont think it even matters. true or false, exact counts. mistake, incidental, delibirate? outcome is the same. reality knows no good or bad. it just makes me sick.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

I think it makes most of us sick Assaf, especially given (as I've said already) that peace simply cannot be the primary goal of those making decisions for IL. It's just an impossible outcome. You can't bomb your neighbors & claim that your primary objective is peace. Well, you can, but you can't expect anyone to believe you when you tell them that.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by garyb »

ReD_MuZe wrote:i dont know who to belive, i dont think it even matters. true or false, exact counts. mistake, incidental, delibirate? outcome is the same. reality knows no good or bad. it just makes me sick.
yes, man.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

Shroomz~> wrote:I think it makes most of us sick Assaf, especially given (as I've said already) that peace simply cannot be the primary goal of those making decisions for IL. It's just an impossible outcome.
your right, at the moment peace is not the primary goal, it is protecting the angry citizens that are getting bombed.
peace was the primary goal when they left gaza, and during the last 8 years absorbing rocket fire and not doing anything about it. i know of no country that would have kept quiet for so long while rockets are being fired at its territory...
You can't bomb your neighbors & claim that your primary objective is peace. Well, you can, but you can't expect anyone to believe you when you tell them that.
Thats why the hamas cannot be reasoned with. this is exactly the mentality in israel that led to the aggression ! they think its not possible to have peace with someone who is constantly bombing you. you see the paradox???

peace is not about 100% good. its about compromise. its not always about walking safely in the park. sometimes its about putting criminals in jail. sometimes its about deciding what's good and bad. there is no perfect system to decide on what's good or bad. but eventually on specific subjects one has to pick what is good and what is bad.
peace is about the stuff thats not too good and not too bad. its about the grey zone. not the white and not the black.
israel now is dark grey (and getting darker each minute of the war), but the hamas is ultra high on contrast (either white or black depends on where you are).

the situation is more complicated than we can even start to imagine...
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

Assaf, what if fear is IL's most powerful weapon. I would never want to undermine the horror & fear of suicide bombings, but regarding the small rockets being fired into Israel, the stats would seem to suggest that an Israeli has more chance of being injured in a vehicle accident than by one of these small rockets. I'm not saying that people haven't been injured & in a few cases even killed by them, but the danger level seems relatively small in actual fact. The technology seems to be so primitive, that it's questionable that anything at all can be accurately targeted, never mind specifically civilians. So, what is the annual death toll there for people in car/vehicle accidents?
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

indeed, israel's weapon is fear to those who want to destroy it. those who accept israel have nothing to fear. and its not like israel wants to keep occupying the territories. its a consensus here that a palestinian state should be made.

people don't get injured often here because they are inside shelters with their lives halted.
a bomb is a bomb. hitech or lowtech.
can you see yourself living like that , and just carry on?

its easy to simplify things by saying the gvmt is responsible... but this is something that the people demanded here, they have had enough.
i think the biggest mistake of the gvmt was to denounce hamas 3 years ago. and instead of making it more extreme it could have made it more mellow. the war now, is just the consequence.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by chriskorff »

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 29944.htmlThis is, IMO, a well-balanced article. I'm curious to find out if other agree?[/url]
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Re: here it goes again

Post by ReD_MuZe »

i agree the seige has to stop,
but the seige is just another bad "non violent" attempt to stop the rocket firing under the logic of "why should we supply them means to shoot us?" rocket firing is 3 years, the siege is on and off for less than 1.5 years, according to the firing of rockets.

israel's tactics are wrong, but this article imo gives way too much credit to the hamas, its agendas and actions(look at the second link i posted a post earlier). the fact is that we have 3 states in israel atm. and if we are not careful we may be looking at 4!
(extreme religious right here are talking of making a "state of judah" which will run by the law of Judaism, and of-course "do the dirty job the infidels are afraid to do")

well balanced? no such thing.

if anything was "well balanced" we would all have peace. the problem is finding the balance.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by next to nothing »

You might think IL leaders had learned that these tactics really doesn't work when you read this article.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/de ... middleeast
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Re: here it goes again

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yep, but the leaders represent the people in this case....
and thats the problem.

no sane person would want a neighbor like the hamas in its current state. the question is what do you do about it? and thats the lesson people have not learned.
i think they can change, if we can change and vise versa, but unfortunately it has to happen it small tiny steps, with many casualties along the way. unfortunately this is the price we will have to pay for peace. time and death.
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Re: here it goes again

Post by Shroomz~> »

ReD_MuZe wrote:indeed, israel's weapon is fear to those who want to destroy it.
What if in a twisted & rather sick way, it's weapon of fear is actually being turned towards it's own people? It wouldn't surprise me at all since many countries are doing exactly that, not only Israel. Staged terrorist bombings all over the place & the puppets we're led to believe actually make decisions ranting on at us about the threat of terror & imminent attack, all in support of the hilariously labeled 'war on terror' - which it would seem is actually a never ending war & a constantly mobilized (and consuming) US military machine - somewhere people are rubbing their greedy little paws in glee as each and every bomb drops or any expensive weapon suddenly needs replaced. 'Keep those production lines rollin' boys! There's a war on! Times are lookin' good!!' So in disbelief, you're no doubt thinking yeh right load of BS & where would IL fit into that picture anyway. mmm... well it ain't rocket science (no pun intended).
ReD_MuZe wrote:those who accept israel have nothing to fear.
Unless you live anywhere remotely near Israel it would seem.
ReD_MuZe wrote:and its not like israel wants to keep occupying the territories. its a consensus here that a palestinian state should be made.
Yeh, one that's tightly controlled by Israel. I guess a tight reign needs to be kept on the Palistinians or you never no what they might get up to. Give them half a chance & they'll be building tanks.. :o
ReD_MuZe wrote:people don't get injured often here because they are inside shelters with their lives halted.
Thanks to your incoming rocket warning sirens I guess? Just as well you've got those then!
ReD_MuZe wrote:a bomb is a bomb. hitech or lowtech.
No, sorry Red, but there's a world of difference between a small rocket no bigger than a large firework which on impact on compacted sand creates a 3-6 foot diameter crater no deeper than 1-2 feet & a military grade 1-tonne bomb made in the US (to mention only one example).
ReD_MuZe wrote:can you see yourself living like that , and just carry on?
Well I can't see myself living in Israel, that much I know for sure. I'd be even less likely to end up living anywhere near the Israeli border in one of it's neighboring coutries, states or territories, since that would be more of a health risk imo. :P
ReD_MuZe wrote:its easy to simplify things by saying the gvmt is responsible... but this is something that the people demanded here, they have had enough.
Governments can make their people demand anything at all, within reasonable attainability.

Hope you don't mind me being frank Assaf. I know I said I'd try to stay out of this discussion, but I feel compelled to say something & express my opinion.

best regards,
Mark
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Re: here it goes again

Post by nightscope »

ReD_MuZe wrote:no sane person would want a neighbor like the hamas in its current state.
Or in any other state.

From The Hamas Charter:-

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

ns
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