Delay with pitch change?

[the19thbear]

I have been away from scope for many years but might be coming back once some technical things are sorted out.


So:
I remember that tape style echo with pitch changes on delay speed was impossible back in the day. (EDIT: Since many seem to misunderstand me, I want to change playback rate. I don't want pitch shifting/time stretching).

But after I left scope I also remember that there was a modular module released that could do exactly that.

Does that mean that we in general can do this in scope land now? In modular and in the sdk?

Example of what I want, at around 0:27
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x_FowpII ... ture=share

Thanks.

[Sextant]

See spacef delays

[the19thbear]

I had a look (and listen). I can't test them since I have no scope hardware currently, but there is no example of them doing what I want them to do: When changing delay time, I want the pitch to change. Just like a real tape echo/tape machine.
This was not possible back in the day, but then came along the modular 5 tape module. Then it was possible.

[valis]

Here is where you asked this before: viewtopic.php?p=347120&hilit=delay#p347120

[the19thbear]

Hmm no that is a different question
I'm not looking for a specific device. I'm asking a general question about current scope technology.
This is the question:
Can we now do delay that changes pitch like a real tape echo?

The modular thing that could do this in mod 5 is called Tape-Delay (never tried it myself)
viewtopic.php?t=35908&hilit=tape+delay
Is this feature (changing pitch on tape delay speed change) available in the SDK? I remember it wasnt back in the day. Probably because of very limited RAM on the scope cards.

[valis]

jksuperstar mentioned which modular module does this. Tape delay and bucket brigade delays were the typical classical implementation that allowed this, and he mentioned in the second to last post which Mod IV module replicates bbd. Also the Celmo implements wobby pitch via the BIAS knob (bottom of thread) but I think you want one where you likely have more control.

I don't have SpaceF's newer Dubby and Del-ray delays, they might do this but I haven't tried them. His classic Delays Echo4 & Ambient Delay don't, but there is an Insert FX slot in each where you could implement this via the right insert.

There are also some listed in this post (I edited the links in the original post earlier in the thread, and quoted that edit in my repost)

Are you looking for a full octaver? Or a descending/ascending effect?

[Rafe]

There's many ways of doing this in modular from a simple pitch shifting delay or a granular tape echo pitch shifting delay using flexor modules and may others as Valis mentions. It can also be more complicated than you think. Indeed, see Spacef delays.
Assuming pitch shift upwards (inverse it for pitch shift down)
Use 2 delays
Use a saw to modulate the rate of the 1st delay, so the delay time starts at a long setting and drops to a shorter setting continuously. Resulting in a pitch shift upwards.
To avoid the bit of the saw that snaps back up and gives an unwated sound, use the 2 delay.
Send a phase shifted copy of the saw to modulate the rate of the 2nd delay.
Use a synced triangle to crossfade between the output of the two delays so only rate change of the input by the saw from long to short delay is heard at the output and not the sound of the saw snapping back to the long delay setting.
This will still have some artifacts but will sound convincing enough and can be easily added to . The more delays used to crossfade between the less artifacts and better the results but at somepoint this all gets very complicated.

I think this was covered in the last lessons of SynthSchool from Assaf Dar, available on youtube.
There's also quite a few VCV patches to copy from and again videos on youtube
Have fun

[the19thbear]

jksuperstar mentioned which modular module does this. Tape delay and bucket brigade delays were the typical classical implementation that allowed this, and he mentioned in the second to last post which Mod IV module replicates bbd. Also the Celmo implements wobby pitch via the BIAS knob (bottom of thread) but I think you want one where you likely have more control.

I don't have SpaceF's newer Dubby and Del-ray delays, they might do this but I haven't tried them. His classic Delays Echo4 & Ambient Delay don't, but there is an Insert FX slot in each where you could implement this via the right insert.

There are also some listed in this post (I edited the links in the original post earlier in the thread, and quoted that edit in my repost)

Are you looking for a full octaver? Or a descending/ascending effect?

I'm not looking for a pitch shifter. So using inserting a pitch shifter in the feedback path wont work. I'm looking to control playback rate, as on a real analog tape delay.
I don't know if this can be done with the modular BBD module. I suspect not.

I am simply looking for the ability to slow down/speed up audio like you can on a tape recorder. No time stretching. Just normal playback rate. Just like on a normal analog tape echo. The pitch varies with the tape speed/delay speed.

And i'm still confused why you are linking to the old thread by me I never asked about being able to do tape style pitch/playback rate in that thread at all.

[the19thbear]

There's many ways of doing this in modular from a simple pitch shifting delay or a granular tape echo pitch shifting delay using flexor modules and may others as Valis mentions. It can also be more complicated than you think. Indeed, see Spacef delays.
Assuming pitch shift upwards (inverse it for pitch shift down)
Use 2 delays
Use a saw to modulate the rate of the 1st delay, so the delay time starts at a long setting and drops to a shorter setting continuously. Resulting in a pitch shift upwards.
To avoid the bit of the saw that snaps back up and gives an unwated sound, use the 2 delay.
Send a phase shifted copy of the saw to modulate the rate of the 2nd delay.
Use a synced triangle to crossfade between the output of the two delays so only rate change of the input by the saw from long to short delay is heard at the output and not the sound of the saw snapping back to the long delay setting.
This will still have some artifacts but will sound convincing enough and can be easily added to . The more delays used to crossfade between the less artifacts and better the results but at somepoint this all gets very complicated.

I think this was covered in the last lessons of SynthSchool from Assaf Dar, available on youtube.
There's also quite a few VCV patches to copy from and again videos on youtube
Have fun

I do not want pitch shifting/time stretching.
I want to be able to control playback rate. Like a tape. Slowed down or sped up

Like in this video around 0:27
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x_FowpII ... ture=share

[valis]

I had a roland space echo, yes I know the effect. I have a few software versions that are fairly good emulations of it now.

I am telling you what exists here based on your first question, prior to your edits:

But after I left scope I also remember that there was a modular module released that could do exactly that.

[the19thbear]

Ok cool Valis.
Will look into the Mod IV tape and BBD module then.
Prior to scope 5, the "tape rate" effect was not found in scope anywhere as far as I recall (only as slight modulation via an LFO)

Thanks

[valis]

Since Scope is realtime, truly slowing it down (pitch and time *together*) would require a buffer that's significantly larger than most devices I am aware of. Like a sampler, it would require the use of main system RAM. Even the software Space Echo emulations I have don't quite achieve that, though there are a few other plugins I own that will (A 'record stop' plugin for instance). Each of those plugins operates differently if you use them on a realtime input than they do if you insert them on a track where they can prebuffer audio off of the incoming disk data.

[the19thbear]

The buffer is the delay time. That's how a normal tape delay functions, at least from the top of my head. And that can be done in almost all modern tape echo VST emulations. So something like a 1 sec buffer at max delay setting is all I need.
But I'm sure it's probably more complicated under the hood in digital land.

[Bud Weiser]

I do not want pitch shifting/time stretching.
I want to be able to control playback rate. Like a tape. Slowed down or sped up

Like in this video around 0:27
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/x_FowpII ... ture=share

EP-3 Echoplex achieved by moving the playback head using the big slider.
IMO, it´s the same like changing tape speed,- AND,- both methods produce pitch shift (up or down) while moving the controls and until a final playback rate or head position is established !



Bud

[valis]

Bucket brigade is also a buffer. It’s just not a large one. You’ve been given options by those here who know Scope well.

[Bud Weiser]

The buffer is the delay time. That's how a normal tape delay functions, at least from the top of my head. And that can be done in almost all modern tape echo VST emulations. So something like a 1 sec buffer at max delay setting is all I need.
But I'm sure it's probably more complicated under the hood in digital land.

More precisely, the "buffer" is the distance between playback heads.
No biggie to create in digital world as long as the delay time changes will be set before you play a note.
To achive what you know from tape delays in digital world, it might need a seamlessly adjustable (quasi "vary pitch") delay time option,- no steps in milliseconds or fractions of.
I can imagine that needs a "variable sample rate buffer".

I only know and own 1 piece of gear producing continuously variable sample rate to achieve a to wordclock synced soundcard following tape flutter when being synced to tape,- the Steinberg/Nuendo Timelock Pro (and possibly other successors too).
But that´s a completely different purpose and usage.



Bud

[garyb]

dNa tape delay?

or get a freakin space echo.....

[the19thbear]

From what I recall, you can’t adjust the delay time on that either. Not in the way I want with pitch changes (but I could be misremembering).

I mostly interested in tinkering with something that can do this in modular or in the sdk.

If I get stuff up and running I’ll investigate further.

[Rafe]

Here is the discussion of creating a tape delay which mimics a space echo in Kyma. Even in Kyma there was difficulty with addressing the memory writer to get the correct timing of the pseudo play and record heads. Eventually it was solved. I doubt this will help build a similar device in Xite but it does give a sense of the scale of the task

http://kyma.symbolicsound.com/qa/5393/f ... ay-in-kyma

I understand the desire to create this in Scope SDK or modular but there is an alternative to purchasing a space echo and that's to make one.

https://youtu.be/e3-nmRLaavM

https://youtu.be/RYz2J4DmxVA

But it seems these efforts are futile considering the cheap price of the actual unit

Best of luck and have fun

Cabaret Voltaire's fantastic use of a Space Echo
https://youtu.be/G4eVr56pqr0

[valis]

From what I recall, you can’t adjust the delay time on that either. Not in the way I want with pitch changes (but I could be misremembering).

I mostly interested in tinkering with something that can do this in modular or in the sdk.

If I get stuff up and running I’ll investigate further.

You won't be able to achieve a full 1second of variance in Modular, as far as I am aware. Meaning, I don't know how to create an addressable range of delay that is variable in time across that many samples, it's certainly possible to have a delay line that's more fixed up to that length with a small amount of variance in terms of samples or milliseconds. But I would simply use pitch tools to emulate this or look elsewhere.

Where else? Well you might try finding some of Strymon's offerings and putting them through an external effects loop: https://www.strymon.net/product-categor ... ts-pedals/