Reamp with Xite (solutions)

[spacef]

Hello,

I am reamping stuff to send to analog distortion pedals (because I tried a lot of stuff, convolution etc, and digital/analog drive definitely does not sound the same to my ears).

There is a thread here, about reamping with an A16 but did not find the same for xite, so I thought it could help someone.

With the A16, I do not know if balanced jacks will work, but with Xite, you can do the following. it is known tricks, but now it is tested on Xite.

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With Xite, you need to use symetrical cables: XLR to 'stereo" jack (ie, balanced) , from the analog outputs to your pedal rig.

Then I use a mix device before the outputs to lower the level down to -20 dB or less.

That way the signal is as clean as can be, and I wonder what a Reamp box could bring more.... sound coloration ?
I am doing without a reamp box = money saved.
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Pic of the cables needed attached, and of my SDK connections.

Anyone interested in a regular Scope device for the levels ? (like, two levels, no mix, just to set levels "pre-analog dest") ?
let me know if you need that.

[spacef]

may be i should have posted in the tips & tricks section ?

[Bud Weiser]

... reamping stuff to send to analog distortion pedals ...

With the A16, I do not know if balanced jacks will work, but with Xite, you can do the following. it is known tricks, but now it is tested on Xite.

The A16Ultra works w/ "balanced" cables,- TRS-(Out) to TRS/ XLR,- or to TS (unbalanced) w/ the option to set 8 analog I/Os (A or B) to a lower level of -10dB using the dip-switches. "
So,- from A16U analog outputs to a pedal rig it nedded a TRS-to-TS cable.

Depending on the "stomp"-boxes in use on your pedal rig,- it MIGHT be neccessary to lower the level even more by using something like a "gain attenuator" device,- but many stomp boxes are able to handle unbalanced (-10dB) line level signals since there are active pickup electronics for guitar, bass and other electromagnetic instruments existing.

When investigating a product like this https://www.radialeng.com/product/jcr, I recognize several features and when thinking about a similar SCOPE device, it might at least need the HP/LP filters, phase- and mute switches in addition to the gain-control.

BUT,- I also can imagine, digitally reducing the level inside SCOPE down to the very low level a vintage stomp box accepts, might degrade the via XITE-Di incoming guitar signal too much.
And possibly XITE and/or A16U DA-conversion sounds (way) better when the converters are driven w/ the usually higher levels.

So,- the benefit of the external hardware reamper might be the gain reduction happens analog and outside of XITE, directly before going into the "stomp box"/pedal.

I am doing without a reamp box = money saved.

Yeah, the radial device is still expensive,- currently EUR 259,- @Thomann (vs EUR 329,- before).

Anyone interested in a regular Scope device for the levels ? (like, two levels, no mix, just to set levels "pre-analog dest") ?
let me know if you need that.

Well,- I´m a keyboardplayer and don´t use any low level output instruments anymore,- also sold almost any guitar pedals long time ago.
My vintage Morley Power Wah-Volume is the only one I still use via a custom mod (mono FX insert loop) w/ my aged Rhodes MK80 digital piano not offering a wah-effect.

I wonder how many guitar- and bass- players we have in the forum and why not a single one is chiming in here.



Bud

[spacef]

When investigating a product like this https://www.radialeng.com/product/jcr, I recognize several features and when thinking about a similar SCOPE device, it might at least need the HP/LP filters, phase- and mute switches in addition to the gain-control.

BUT,- I also can imagine, digitally reducing the level inside SCOPE down to the very low level a vintage stomp box accepts, might degrade the via XITE-Di incoming guitar signal too much.
And possibly XITE and/or A16U DA-conversion sounds (way) better when the converters are driven w/ the usually higher levels.
I wonder how many guitar- and bass- players we have in the forum and why not a single one is chiming in here.



Bud

Thanks for the input Bud ! (no reamped pun intented)

About levels inside Xite it's really about not saturing the destination unit. I can put at maxlevel and produce a cool fuzz,and awesome synth distortions. But I have another pedal that has an loud input gain, and putting levels inside Xite @ -19dB exactly gives me enough room to play with the pedal's input gain, and the sound is great (superloud anyway).

I don't want to go into a debate, but I feel that setting levels inside xite or after it, is more or less the same (the signal is just lower). but well, it is just a gut feeling.

I stated -20dB because a friend told me that more could break something (speakers Isuppose?) , but yes, I can go wild (one of the pedal soundsvery nice with only -7.5 dB attenuation).

I almost bought a Palmer River Trave (77€)... but gave a chance to the XLR/TRS cables. and .. baaam, it works...

All that because I got myself a harmonica, wanted to reamp it, and in the future I still plan to get a real spring reverb unit (Iam not happy with convolution reverbs, apparently they can't "drip").
(BTW: I have heard the cheap spring tanks from china can be easily amped with..... a headphone output!! or a headphone amp (as headphone come in multiple impedances, the signal from an amplified headphone output like we have on xite would be enough to adapt "any" impedance?.... that's a "Stereo to RCA cable"... but I have no idea of the Noise that it would produce. There are succesful tests on YT though.

Reamping is not only for guitarists it opens a world for organs, synths, even vocals (...talk box pedal ....
It is not miraculous,because it depends on the pedals you have and they are not all equal, but I have a few that were taking dust (haven't used them for 5 years or so...)...

Anyway, I understand that it is the kind of subject that sounds pretty remote for someone who has not gone into that process or who does not feel the need for that (I was one of those not long ago).

But it is good that the topic is there for anyone who might need it in the future.

[fra77x2]

I am a guitar player. I am not sure about the case. With my metal zone pedal i have used the phono out from xite and the mic inputs to return the signal. I do not have the a16.

Currently I had made a balanced driver for the xlr inputs which takes advantage of the whole signal so to keep noise levels down when processing stuff with my analog custom fxs. It works fine. so i do not attenuate anything because i lose signal If i do.

[Bud Weiser]

...

I don't want to go into a debate, but I feel that setting levels inside xite or after it, is more or less the same (the signal is just lower)...

My assumption above came from theory "when lowering volume in digital world it reduces the bitrate".
So when working p.ex. in 16Bit and reduce level, you might end w/ 4 Bits for your signal when the level is low enough.
WHEN this is not the case or non-critical w/XITE and SCOPE PCI, a SCOPE "reamp"-device could be interesting.

OTOH,- when it´s just only about reducing signal level running from XITE-1 DI-source to an analog-, ADAT-, ZLink- destination,- WHY not using the project´s mixer and run out of a pre-/post fader AUX-bus?

What would be the difference when you try to create a SCOPE "gain reduction" device for re-amping w/ XITE or SCOPE PCI ?

Reamping is not only for guitarists it opens a world for organs, synths, even vocals (...talk box pedal

QFT.
I´m using a Chandler Tubedriver rackmount and other 19" outboard gear as well.
But then, I don´t have to reduce line level,- last but not least because the Tubedriver offers "LIne" and "Instrument in- and outputs.



Bud

[Bud Weiser]

With my metal zone pedal i have used the phono out from xite and the mic inputs to return the signal.

I guess you mean the XITE´s "phones" output.
So, when you do, you use the ANALOG volume control of that (stereo-)output and the analog gain controls of the DI-board as well.

Currently I had made a balanced driver for the xlr inputs which takes advantage of the whole signal so to keep noise levels down when processing stuff with my analog custom fxs. It works fine.

Cool !

so i do not attenuate anything because i lose signal If i do.

THIS !
I also think reducing gain digital produces some loss in signal quality always.



Bud

[fra77x2]

yes i have the phones output volume at half i think it is -6dB in this setting.

My analog stage has a +-15V split power supply and I have tested the setup with sine waves so to have good signal. Perhaps I attenuate a bit in the analog domain and then boost my digital return signal by 6dB. I get clean signals with very low noise floor and limited hum. But my tube amp is custom made and i use trimmers to get different amounts of distorted or clean signals.

Ofcourse i use the volume of the sound modules to find the sweet spots because every sound has its own needs. In general testing with sine waves and aiming for strong undistorted signal with low noise floor should lead to satisfactory results. When using the balanced audio inputs i get 0dB sine waves with a 6dB boost on the digital domain and noise floor at -96dB. It is perfect for me and for professional work

[fra77x2]

It is not so a matter of interest about digital bitrate reduction but of using the analog bandwidth right

[spacef]

Hello !!
yes, I too think that, with attenuation in xite, you may loose "amplitude" of the audio, but not bit resolution (it is still 32 bit, not bit crushed )

So anyway, I did a recording, not to proove my point agressively, but to better understand.
It's a track I am working on with my harmonica ( )

The reamped soundis the steel / slide guitar

Can you really tell which is the original signal and which is the reamped one?

>>>> https://soundcloud.com/user-442800355/reampxlr-slideguitarsample

Wave 44/32 here: https://spacef-devices.com/File-downloa ... deGuit.wav

Slide Guitare: every 2 loops change the destination (to daw master, or to analog dest/guitar pedal).
The slide guitar is a sample from a library, not a personal recording (but does that change anything ?).
I will tell which is which but just to do a blind test, it's better not to say.

You may tell because the master has Ozone on it, but when it is sent to Analog Dest, the slide guitar is played in parallel to the mix.

The output volume is -9.2 but that's meaningless because there an input gain on the pedal (they play together, settings may vary according to sound/mix etc).
Circuit is analog Dest->XLR/TRS->pedalon but wet Off (only dry passes through)--> pedal out to Mooer Radar Bypassed --> to HiZinput-->to xite mixer.


So I am not here to revolutionize impedance, but for a guy like me, the technic sounds good enough to experiment with guitar pedal and record it.
No?

It is also possible that not all guitar pedals are equal, and that it is what I am using that changes something. possible. I do not know.

[spacef]

however, a proper reamp box might be useful for the integrity of the sound of a distortion pedal or whatever is the first pedal in the chain (I have read that the input impedance of distortion/fuzz etc may vary because it is a part of how it is supposed to sound).
I also did not do a sine wave test, and will have to try on different sounds and a different pedal chain. It is possible that there are situations where it will not work great...

[valis]

A passive DI box is also an acceptable re-amp device, and has other uses in the studio as well. When recording, you use the DI box as normal. To use it like like a re-amp box, you connect the DI box in reverse. Only passive DI boxes can be connected in reverse.

The Radial JDI Passive DI Box can be attenuated to -30dB when used in reverse and will closely approximate a re-amp box, though of course high fidelity re-amp devices will still achieve better results.

[fra77x2]

I do this ugly thing...

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[fra77x2]

I have also made a simple solution to get sample accurate triggers by using xite midi output and an ATTINY13 processor.

From my daw I send an audio trigger to xite asio. Xite converts it to midi event and sends it to Xite midi output.

Attiny13a reads the midi signal from xite and creates voltage gates. I use these gates to trigger analog filters and compression sidechains inputs.

Very good timing.

[fra77x2]

Now that i remember I have done the "sine wave test" with DC coupled oscilloscope so to position the signals right. When I use only the first stage of my tubes that are battery powered and very clean I can boost a lot on the digital domain and bring out fantastic analog depth.

My second tube stage that uses a couple of ussr age 6N2P triodes has a custom 90V supply for the plate voltage that introduces some hum. But in this setting i get the a lot of great distortion that makes everything sound nice

[spacef]

Apparently, I have nothing to do on a 1st of Jan 2024, but to geek out

Happy new year everyone !

These are oscillators tests, with the mutli-oscillator of Scope on "Saw Down" (to see transients)

First image is the oscillator direct to asio, no level attenuation.
Second image is the shape when it is back to daw (though analog dests and Xite 1 xlr input+HiZ+Pad (which is very loud compared to a simple mono guitar jack = may cause additional drive). So may be I can improve something by using different jack type.


1 / my setup explained above (simple mix module, at a level that does not overdrive/clip/saturate, which depends on the sounds peak)

2/ gain @ 0dB + phase invert using an old "Mixer Input" module from scope SDK: it is not a "mix" (level) module but a gain+phase button (so, different math than the "mix" module)

3/ gain at -9.2 dB (like with the mix module) + phase invert

4/ gain at -15.4 dB + phase invert (best match: so if you use a gain module, the level is set differently than on a simple mix module, otherwise there is stauration/waveshaping).

Results are similar with other osc shapes.

Personal Conclusions:
By listening, the sound difference is not obvious at all (to me). it sounds more or less the same with saturation if levels are not set correctly through the whole chain (analog dest, pedal input, scope input = lots of occasion to break the wave shapes).

The shape change according to levels, and it is not the same amplitude. This could probably be solved after normalizing/gain the final recording in the daw. But pedals and external effect will play with less dynamics/amplitude.

I do not have a reamp box to compare, but I would conclude that if you use the workaround method (no reamp box ), the result will depend on the modules used before the analog dest, and that it could be better to invert phase in the daw, on the final recording.

That's something I would have preferred not to know because my results are fine enough in a mix, but now I see what a reamp box must do, and how levels change radically the shapes. I will probably have to get a reamp box sooner or later to see if it really works (no hurry though, must see if I still have fun with my pedals in a few weeks). At least I know what to test now

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I think I found a way to make new oscillator shapes with scope modules, this can be used with Blackbox III macro osc and filter, sending the osc out of scope, driving it, and then getting the sound back and send it to a filter .. may be not advised ... I don't know. for experimenters only.

[fra77x2]

Happy 2024 to all

You could use an FFT analyzer at the same time to check the noise floor. Also Xite inputs are AC coupled and you miss the dc component if there is one. Big DC can make capacitors work overdue and even damage the adc. The xlr inputs can certainly provide a full range signal. I would recommend a dc coupled osciloscope so to get a clear picture of your signals

[spacef]

Yes, I will certainly get a reamp device (if I knew how to make mine... I tried but I am not productive with electronics (there are concepts that I still can't visualize in my mind, so bacsically, I don't understand them (and soldering....)

Anyway, on another subject
I copy a mail exchange with "TAD" (spring tanks manufacturer) and the info can be useful. (I suppose that question/reply B might depend on the quality of the volume potentiometer, not to reach saturation too quickly). Basically a type BB seems to be what will work best (scroll down the TAD link to see the meaning of lettering).

My questions are the following:
a) - I would use a headphone amp (between 40 and 80 ohms output impedance depending on the amp) : is this enough to drive the B type (150 ohms input)
b) - or may be an "in-ear" amp of approx 10 ohms : does this work with the 8 ohms input "A" type ?
c) Models that have 2275 Ohm output impedance: will it match the HiZ input of a soundcard ?


Reply:
a) Yes
b) yes

c) Output impedance.
Basically, the input impedance of the device should have 10x the output impedance of the spring. So, the 2275 ohms should "see" 22k at least. Line inputs are normally lower than that!
It is recommended to use a High-Z inputs of Your card.

Hope it helps...

[valis]

He's correct. Line inputs are 10K *at best*, and typically much much lower to account for consumer garbage (ie, onboard soundcards where the 'difference' is made up in the hardware codec implementation--ie, Realtek or Azalia etc--corrective DSP is applied to the signal before being delivered as PCM audio to the host OS. I realize Xite is not Realtek but this information can be useful for some as well).