The monster of atomic war is upon us, again...

[Eanna]

Interesting facts garyb.
Eugenics / social Darwinism never died then!
Afaik, Galton (early proponent of Eugenics) was a cousin of Darwin's.
And of course, Davenport in the US held sway, funding, power, and even a social register as part of his organisation to back up the Eugenics theorem with statistics.
There was surprisingly universal acceptance among eminent politicians, philosophers, economists, authors, and scientists in that period that eventually culminated in racial and ethnic cleansing in Nazism. And since the horrors of WWII, it's just gone underground and underhanded...

For me tho, my thoughts tend to be introspective - I do attempt to be aware of my own self-perpetuating self-reinforcing story telling. I do feel that it is thru honest self-awareness of the narrative that we can escape from ourselves a little, to see ourselves not as participants in the story but as narrators. For me, it's liberating, and can open doors to enlightenment and change.

I'll return to the topic tho, of Syria, Iran, Israel et al., and of the current nuclear threat... Until there is a will to change and to engage in dialog (appeasement resulting in reconciliation), then there will continue to be unrest. There are so many parties involved, entrenched position, and a considerable history, its difficult to see how any one group of people can synthesise the conditions for change in the many.

I used to believe that the US, in their arms deals with allies (the enemy of my enemy is my friend), only contributed to the threat of total-war. And that its pursuit of democratic ideals and of 'freedom and the American way' were thinly-shrouded guises wrapping self-preservation and access to resources beyond its national boundaries. Now it does appear that the aftermath of the cold war and the futility of mutual annihilation has resulted in a useful approach to peace-keeping. But, that is very different to conflict resolution, unfortunately...

Lets hope the whole of the international community can encourage the parties to the table, and not let our collective apathy be their benefit.

For me, if you can help others to detach themselves from their personal narrative surrounding the world of objects and facts, then that might be an approach. If that means whistling Bobby McFerrin's track, then I've already started....

[garyb]

sure. the thing is, those who actually fight the war are never the benefactors of the war.

there is no USA, no England, no Ireland, no Syria, no Lebanon, no Israel, etc(except for certain tribal connections). where the busines of countries are concerned("country" is latin "Terra Contrata", the land i am against), it's all one integrated world-wide system. individual players do struggle for position within the system, but governments are simply ways of organizing groups of people.

money is neither the reason, nor the cause, but it IS one of the tools used, like a lever, to manipulate those groups of people. just look at how wars get funded. even "terrorists" need funding to pay the arms dealers from the very countries that they oppose.

eugenics dying? it's just getting started. yes, the Galtons were the prime instigators, from a rock-star perspective(and one error i had made was not including the Galton name in the group of inbreeders that the Darwin family was part of). the same can be said for Shakespeare, quoted earlier. there is an acedemic term called "predictive programming" and it's one of the main ways that thought is controlled. back before Elizabeth I, NOONE spoke English anywhere in the world. the language called English was a Germanic dialect related to Dutch. it was decided in QEI's court that a new language was needed to create a permanent empire and for trade within that system. the plays of William Shakespeare were one of the main ways this was done. his plays entered some 30,000 words into the language and some 1700 were his invention. people watched popular plays and just as they do now with books and movies, added these words into the language. the ex-OSS founder and operative that wrote about "newspeak" understood this very well...

by the way, if E=MC2 then as that sentence says, Energy EQUALS Mass times a big number. facts and things(Mass) must be every bit as important as Spirit(Energy), since Equal means "the same as". one can only doom humanity, and since humanity IS each human, doom themselves, by denying the outer for the inner, or vice versa.

[Eanna]

by the way, if E=MC2 then as that sentence says, Energy EQUALS Mass times a big number. facts and things(Mass) must be every bit as important as Spirit(Energy), since Equal means "the same as". one can only doom humanity, and since humanity IS each human, doom themselves, by denying the outer for the inner, or vice versa.

Don't understand you there man..

e=mc^2 is just a tidy mathematical expression of a law in physics!

[garyb]

no, it's not. it's a sentence describing reality. that's what mathematics are, a language to describe reality.

e=mc2 is shorthand for a sentence saying "energy in any quantity or quality is exactly the same as the corresponding mass times 299,792,458 times 299,792,458. this is why few hundred grams of Uranium that has it's nuclei split gives off enough energy in the slight loss of mass that occurs to vaporize a small town. or so goes the gross oversimplification. this concept is expressed in the occult idea of "as above, so below". it is the duality of the universe, spirit and matter.

physics is the study of the nature of reality, or as officially defined by the collective memorybank called Wikipedia that is sometimes more or less accurate, "it is the general analysis of nature, conducted in order to understand how the universe behaves".

i'm sorry, i'm not a Satanist. i don't believe that the only true reality is what i can experience. i know that the purpose of the universe is not to become the God within and make all creation bow to my will. things that i don't know may be just as real as what i can prove through my own experience. i am just a small part of reality. i care about what happens to the humans though, because i am one of them. i oppose the sacrifice of my fellow beings, just as i oppose the sacrifice of my own person. i'm just expressing the importance of this, at least to humans. want to save the world? that's part of the solution. want to destroy the world? the best way is to just ignore what is actually happening. i'm not saying that one should run around in circles screaming about the world falling. i am saying that just going about one's own business in the best way possible with full attention and to the exclusion of things that are not one's business is a perfectly legitimate thing to do. ignoring reality is not the same as going about one's own business to the exclusion of things that are not one's business is not the same as ignoring things that are going on.

this is just some talk on an internet forum.

[garyb]

-btw-

while i'm talking all this crap, i do agree that worrying won't help at all. don't worry is a good idea. going to sleep instead isn't the answer either.

[Eanna]

e=mc^2 isn't a statement of reality. It's a part of a theory. And it will remain an accepted theory, until something better comes along... That's science. No absolutes.
Its not the Law of General Relativity! Just fits the experimental data well enough at our scale that we know reasonably well how to recreate it and have a couple of strategies to harness it.

It has no bearing on anything beyond physics. Suggesting that the conversion of a small amount of mass into energy will destroy a town is not an oversimplification, gross or otherwise. This is fact! It does nothing more! There is a simplification of the difficult physics there, but the fact is not oversimplified. Attributing something beyond the General Theory of Relativity with respect to the identity is introducing unmeasurable subjectivity into something that just talks about Mass, in grams, Energy, in Joules, and the Speed of Light, in ms^-1. Nothing more. And certainly, not universal duality nor the occult!

And identifying Satanism with Realism is a strange approach to take!
Don't think I was proposing sleep, denial, ignorance of reality?

But yep, Bobby McF had the right idea to sing a simple message with a simple recording...

[hubird]

I can see your confusion about how the discussion devellops Eanna...kind of different levels, change of focus, an overruling truth, etc., isn't it?
27 posts I see, well you'll need some time to learn more about the philosophical premises of some (well respected) forum members...
Yet, like Garyb said, this is just some talk on an internet forum

[dawman]

But yep, Bobby McF had the right idea to sing a simple message with a simple recording...

If you want to hear where he got his talent, which really is unmarketed and extra ordinary, listen to his father. One of the most powerful Baritones in opera who was frowned on for a being a serious drunk, and black, in a pretty much elite group of Conductors and performers.
I had to take singing lessons from him and study Solfeggio, and it was the time of my life.

He had an open bottle on the Piano and was smashed everyday, but damn when he sang he could part your hair. Google him just for shits and grins, or just go to YouTube and hear him in Porgy and Bess, a great movie where Sdyney Portier lip synced Robert McFerrin Sr.'s voice.

I went to his Funeral in in 2006 as he was one of my all time favorite mentors on everything, not just singing, and I swear the line of cars was miles long, literally hundredas of people were there, more than the Gambino Family Funeral. And the Acapella singers Including Jr. was so spitually moving I cried and hugged like I was lost for years at sea and just returned.

I aint religious, but until you've played with Gospels singers, you haven't experienced the aura and spirituality, it makes you believe in God it's so powerful, But once you get back in traffic and start yellin at other drivers and flippin them off the buzz wears off.

I miss my old teacher, he got me the gig with Fontella Bass, Babs Robinette, Luther Ingram, JD Parran, the composer of the Malcom X Movie....Thanks to them I can groove on a Piano without touching the pedals.
Damn I wish I wouldn't have read this as it brought back years of memories of when I played with great perfomers and great music, and now I have to go play crap music for drunks and prostitutes, while my mates borrow money until they get paid.
Talk about a rut...

[garyb]

yep, bobby mcferrin can sing.

the fact that you can compare energy and mass in a meaningful way is enough to prove my point. the real world is important. people are important, at least to people...

i can't see any reason for animosity in this thread. personally, i don't think i've spoken anything of note that is untrue, well, maybe putting Huxley into Darwin and Wedgewoods marryin' agreement instead of the esteemed Galton, the man who proved the evolutionary inferiority of the Africans and Asians through measurements of skulls and assessments of the posture of each group , member of the double helix people, two snakes on a stick.

Jimmy with a solo on the left....or right, let's see, stage left is...

[Eanna]

the fact that you can compare energy and mass in a meaningful way is enough to prove my point. the real world is important. people are important, at least to people...

Disagree there man. Energy and Mass equation is energy and mass equation, nothing else. Equating Energy to something that isn't Energy as defined by Physics, and likewise Mass, and then going on to employ the equation, does not prove the point you wish to prove.
All that equation states is there is mass and energy are proportional. It's no different to the equation for a line - y=mx+c. If you had chosen that general form for expressing linear proportionality garyb, you'd have been OK!

Hijacking an equation produced by the logical working thru of a theory and replacing the meaning of variables in that equation with concepts of your own choice doesn't prove anything. For me, it highlights an abuse of understanding.

I understand what you're trying to say, more or less. But tidy equations from a completely different context at best may serve to provide an analogy for what you're trying to say, as an attempt to rephrase the point in a language that is more succinct. Doesn't -prove- anything tho.

Yeah, 27 posts lads. 28 now I guess. Definitely a Rookie, me!

I'll give ye a laugh - first read hubird's response re. garyb philosophies, then continued to read dawman's post:
"If you want to hear where he got his talent, which really is unmarketed and extra ordinary, listen to his father. One of the most powerful Baritones in opera who was frowned on for a being a serious drunk, and black, in a pretty much elite group of Conductors and performers."

I initially neglected to notice that dawman was commenting on Mr McFerrin! Thought he was talking about garyb!!
I was thinking to myself - Jeez! How's garyb gonna take that?! Talking about him in the third person, and calling his Dad a drunkard!

[garyb]

"equal" means "the same as".

"equation" means "a mathematical sentence that shows things that are the same". numbers don't lie or have hidden agendas, although those who lie or have hidden agendas can use numbers for that purpose. even the Devil tells the truth to lead one astray. a perfect example is the simple equation 1+1=2. 1+1 certainly is the same as 2, always and in every stuation.

i am only speaking in terms of the definitions of words, which are representations of the world, not any kind of philosophy.

people can believe whatever they want. consensus or not, reality is reality regardless of anyone's opinion. there isn't much more than that. we are here. each human is humanity, and the destruction of some is a tragedy for all. these are not beliefs or philosophies, they're just the situation.

Jim is a master of comedy, as am i...he can talk smack about my dad if he wants. i know where he hangs out...

[Nestor]

Jim is a master of comedy

And he's a good one Siting in a good bar and drink a few beers with him and having a long talk would be really fun, he can be hilarious

It was fun to read your entertaining interchange guys, enjoyed it

As an addition to your philosophical endeavors, I would like to say that: reality it is what it is; “perception” or “discernment” is what is different from person to person. A stone is a stone, and it is exactly what it is, to itself, but someone may look at it and believe it is a death animal while another one thinks it is a piece of bread, but it is still and will always be a stone.

If perception-discernment is what it is different from a person to another, the bottom line must be consciousness, the ultimate and only tool to perceive reality. So, if consciousness is what allows for you to gather objective information and there are people that perceive more and others that perceive less, it means that there are people with more consciousness and people with less consciousness, and that the problem of truth it is in fact, a problem of how much consciousness you have.

I don’t agree with the theory that states you need to “learn from the outside world” everything, because in the inner world of every person there is in fact, much more information that there is outside o himself.

As a conclusion, there are two worlds that are constantly colliding, the external and the internal and awareness (consciousness) is the only means to clarify the experience, that is to say, the “impressions” we receive into our 5 senses.

The problem of humanity relies in having our consciousness asleep. This concept of mankind being asleep has tens of thousands of years and has been taught in all the mayor cultures of the ancient world, and not by chance.

[Eanna]

a perfect example is the simple equation 1+1=2. 1+1 certainly is the same as 2, always and in every stuation.

Before you think I'm going to disagree with you on that, I don't disagree. I am a fan of Maths! I'm no expert, but the bit I do know I do keep fresh...

But!

(what's this Irish dude gonna say now...?)

But, 1+1=2 is only true by the definition of the + operator. In order words, it is true by definition, not true by reality.

And, don't forget Goedel's fancy Incompleteness Theorems - in any closed system, there are expressions in the system that cannot be proven... 1+1=2 has proven (pardon the pun) to be a sticky customer to prove...
I think its cause we cannot rely on proving Maths by experience. Sure enough, get one apple and another apple, and you have two apples. But what if it could be experienced that this was not the case? Mathematics cannot be contingent on experience - it doesn't bear consideration!

Fun exercises for the brain, not to be taken seriously. Just ask Wittgenstein!

garyb, you've a funny way about you. You're good at these forum posts, good at presenting your position in a disarming manner that makes it appear that you bring absolutes of truth and fact together. You are calmly divisive, and it seems that you enjoy this aspect of your self - which is cool. Don't think I have a problem with your approach, I certainly don't - feckit, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have found SC Plate!! Doh!

[Eanna]

All good Nestor.

That's the reason why I had said:
"For me tho, my thoughts tend to be introspective - I do attempt to be aware of my own self-perpetuating self-reinforcing story telling. I do feel that it is thru honest self-awareness of the narrative that we can escape from ourselves a little, to see ourselves not as participants in the story but as narrators. For me, it's liberating, and can open doors to enlightenment and change."

In your philosophy, what I'm attempting to do is to wake up from my slumbers and to augment to my consciousness, if only temporarily. Its an attempt to add one more sensory experience of the world. And, yes, it's an illusion, but one that has served me well on occasion.

The trouble with Philosophy is that people get kinda pissed off listening to it, isn't it. I'm tired of listening to myself at this point!

[garyb]

it's good to talk about things, even in misunderstanding and disagreement. it allows everyone the chance to think about things, which is not an end in itself, but is still good to do from time to time.

[Eanna]

That's it garyb.
No argument there.

I'll have to keep my kids' eyes away from my last posts, lest they justify sloppy maths homework with a challenge for me to prove that their answer is not correct, in the axiomatic closed system of mathematics...
I wouldn't put it past the oldest fella....

[garyb]

ah yes, kids....
they're pretty sharp.


they're also a reason to care about the future, since they're a physical extension of us through time.

[hubird]

Real gentlemen, respect.
I mean it.
Had a good read along the route.

So I had doubts to post this post, as the world just started to shine.
Yet this triggered me, and triggered me....
It got long, this time, so just skip it if you like:-)

If perception-discernment is what it is different from a person to another, the bottom line must be consciousness, the ultimate and only tool to perceive reality. So, if consciousness is what allows for you to gather objective information and there are people that perceive more and others that perceive less, it means that there are people with more consciousness and people with less consciousness, and that the problem of truth it is in fact, a problem of how much consciousness you have.
end of quote.

Try to read that intensely, and try to find any logic, even if opening your mind for sublimated and semantic use of words and the like.

First, it ends in the implicit warning to desperately get some consciousness before it's too late, and you need a lot!
So you have the saved and the unsaved people. Hm, will come back to that later I hope.

Then take the first sentence alone, light blue I hope, for your convenience:
As a conclusion, there are two worlds that are constantly colliding, the external and the internal and awareness (consciousness) is the only means to clarify the experience.

this is so full of wild, as facts stated, weird assumptions.
It's pure in-crowed talk, only valid and understandable inside a certain construction of human thoughts, respectfully speaking.
The 'conclusion' is just a statement, and consciousness can clarify everything except the experience. Science does that, but consciousness is a premise to knowledge, yes.
Newton would desperately lift his arms if he'd read that, and Einstein wouldn't even take notice.

Not to speak about the rest of the quote, it are mantra's without explaining anything.

I'm sure the beholders of the ideas behind all this wouldn't like it at all, this simplified translating to the real world...


Btw, i.m.h.o. you can't have better than Buddhism related moral systems if you need spirituality with respect for your environment (of all sorts).
To make my position clear

So here's the rest of my post.
Maybe there's some reason to find in it, or it's just fun to sharpen the mind. Or not.
I deleted already the remarks like above.

I don’t agree with the theory that states you need to “learn from the outside world” everything, because in the inner world of every person there is in fact, much more information that there is outside o himself.

ever heard about the mental state of say a 15 year old child after being locked up its whole life in a cellar or darkened room?
Even the human capacity to think abstract is lost, for ever, that is...
You know why for ever? because of the brain part of (self)consciousness did not devellop, ultimately because of a lack of stumuli...

A brain is empty when born, memory function is absent to minimally necessory for survival, it are the natural born reflexes which keep it alive, like the will to drink from the nipple, what I say, any niple of any woman, and I guess some animals also.
Conclusion: all information from inside has come there by experience and information INput (and subsequently interpreted by the individual).

Consciousness of what, and what to do with that human capacity, that's the question.

It looks like you're trying to transplant a specific meaning of the conceipt consciousness as defined in some (well respected) meditation oriënted 'believes', to the real world.

In the real world consciousness refers to the (only) human capacity to be aware of your own (behavior and thoughts).
You don't blame a cat for slowly killing a mouse, isn't it? nevertheless it's our moral duty to free the mouse.
The fact of (self)consciousness is a premise for moral standards and generally to justice - civilization althus.

Using the term consciousness in the semantic meaning of a 'higher state of awareness' doesn't mean anything to the doomed masses, or to science for that matter.
The one who can translate the real ideas behind the mantras to the world he does understand.
So be our guest.

I'm not completely unknowing, as I once used to take part in payed Trancendental Meditation meetings, although I never believed the world would be soon better if only the number of TM-ers would expand...it just felt good afterwards. And yeah, the yoga meetings later were also perfect.

Resuming, Nestor, evolutionary, ánd within each individual, it all starts just after consciousness, not by consciousness.

The problem of humanity relies in having our consciousness asleep. This concept of mankind being asleep has tens of thousands of years and has been taught in all the mayor cultures of the ancient world, and not by chance.

Strange, that preoccupation of yours with that old biblical idea of the chosen people, and the role of the always central-shining prophet.
After all those millions of centuries it's completely accidently exactly him who is chosen to warn us (so gentle) for what's coming, very, very soon...probably.

Just hope that Israel won't bomb Iran on 21 December 2012.
OMG...

[Nestor]

Riots are really bad in Spain and Greece, and will get worst as the time goes by while more countries join in anger, it was not just a song… it is reality, Madrid is in absolute rage! Athens is also in a sort of small civil war already. Mahmud Ahmadineyad is getting tougher facing up Israel pressures. Economy is getting worst in a worldwide way and there is an enormous collapse coming up soon, way more important than expected by market calculations, but watch out, it will be hidden until it explodes in our hands to “their” convenience. Violence is slowly spreading from the centre of the conflicts in the Middle East, to the neighboring countries. The picture is as clear as it is factual, as factual as it is true; it is in the eyes of the beholder.

[dawman]

The problem with the Middle East is there are too many Gods from the same city.
We have the very same problem in Washington DC.