It appears Universal Audio could not do it.

[Sounddesigner]

It appears as if the worlds best coders S|C have done what no other could do and have made huge amounts of dsp power available with Laptops. This is great news and strenghthens faith in this company for me.

I think SSL went Hybrid with Native too soon judging by the release of the latest Power-hungry plugins (wich i suspected would happen), these plugins have no problem bringing any computer down. I think Uad is too over-priced especially since their cards are pretty empty at purchase far as software and hardware goes. For the forseeable future Computers will have little to no speed increase and only Core stacking. I thought Sandy Bridge would atleast run at 4ghz but it seems intel has changed it to 3- 3.4 ghz for its 8 cores, and threw turbo-boost up to 3.8. I really feel glad to have the XITE-1 Power-house ensuring me that i will not be under-powered anytime soon no matter wich Native power-hungry plugins i buy and use, nor latency issues that forever haunt computers. To use XITE-1 in combo with good computer is great and Sonic Core will prove when the illusion of true-power wears off computers that dsp is still the greatest and a neccessary method to employ with computers for achieving high-end production ITB. Especially since its portable and connects to either laptop or desktop one owns.

Thank you S|C for your love and dedication with SCOPE. I know this Platform is large and complex and warrants long time to fix,port and improve, i can be patient. Thank you for not believing Myths about computers and giving up on dedicated dsp's. I'm positive this SCOPE Platform is in good hands!

[siriusbliss]

I'll agree 100% - having been on the development side of things, what 'the gents' have accomplished is pretty amazing.

I think the trend over the next couple years will be to bloat out systems with more RAM in order to handle the ever-heavier VST/Rompler syndrome.
Thus effectively building systems with more 'verticality' to handle the overhead with yes, probably CPU and surface speeds staying about the same (with stacking).

The Xite advantage is having the throughput and 'horizontal' architecture (and any future DSP products) to get the speed and low latency, and leave vertical room for the big bloaty plugs.
The other advantage will be working in surround, since the media guys are starting to (finally) push 3-D television, then there will probably be more surround production work out there (a lot of what is broadcast now is NOT surround).

Next problems will arise from 'true' 64-bit and harddrive restrictions in handling ever-larger files - while kids listen to m-puke-ees on little ipods with earbuds.

What a crazy industry. Can't wait for NAMM.

Greg

[dawman]

I am already experimenting w/ Kontakt's Surround features, as it has many options and is open ended for future improvements.
But even more interesting are the Chaos LFO Modules in Modular IV.
They use the same math to create spiral patterns that's used for the JLCooper Automated Surround Panner.
It's safe to assume that in an 8 x 8 Modular Shell the Roessler & Lorenz Attractors can be used in such a way.
I can't comment any further on this other than I know how these techniques were used to create soft spiral and random patterns in Kontakt, and these patterns can be generated by the JLCooper software as well, on a much higher level.
The MIDI Sequencer, be it hardware for stage, or software for audio/MIDI studio work can store patterns in a large template and automate it with ease.
Imagine an exact center of the sound field. Now a sweeping Cfm starting it's spiral on the smallest, slowest spiral and increasing in speed and size while the filter dynamically incresases.
These are serious tools if this can be pulled off.


Express 34 Card rules......

[Warp69]

I think SSL went Hybrid with Native too soon judging by the release of the latest Power-hungry plugins (wich i suspected would happen), these plugins have no problem bringing any computer down.

Any computer? I can run over 80 instances of X-Verb on my Mac Pro (early 2008). Let us wait for the next release of Duende

For the forseeable future Computers will have little to no speed increase and only Core stacking. I thought Sandy Bridge would atleast run at 4ghz but it seems intel has changed it to 3- 3.4 ghz for its 8 cores, and threw turbo-boost up to 3.8.

Im not quite sure I understand this - every version of X86 (except the infamous move from P3 to P4) is faster than the previous version clock for clock. The Sandy Bridge will have AVX - 256bit wide SIMD - that's twice that we have available on Nehalem.

[Sounddesigner]

Warp69, 80 instances of x-verb is far from indication of handling large project size if thats all your computer can handle. Meaning if all your effects plugins eat as much power as X-verb then a song of 80 plugins is far from enough to meet the demmands of many people out here. what about hungrier synths included? What about higher samplerates aswell? What about running them at ultra low latency? Are you going to tell me that running only 80 effects is where we need to be with computers to satisfy the needs of the industry?

My point is also this; there are newer plugins out here you definitely will not be able to run 80 instances of on your Mac Pro and if you use those newer Native effects and synths then the duende is not helping but adding to your problem by eating more of your cpu power instead of adding more. I have newer Native effects that i can't even run 10 instances of at 96khz so why would i buy a duende to eat up even more of my power? It's to early for many of us to depend solely on computers for both power and low-latency, the new processors recently released where deceptive in how powerful they appeared and SSL figured computers where powerfull enough to meet the demmands and continue to do so, but with computer power increase comes the next generation of plugins and many are more hungrier then older plugins. Also don't underestimate humane desires, imagination and ambition, when people get more power they get more creative/experimental thus needing even more power. Just as we can never have enough money we can never have enough processing power on the market, so co-processors bringing more is always better then depending soley on intel and amd. I think the demmands of the Bricasti reverb should've told everyone where we are headed.


As far as lack of speed increase of newer processors; there is a huge general purpose O/S that demmands more speed from computers constantly and i don't think Core stacking is addressing this well on its own. I have a benchmark that shows a Core i7 without Hyperthreading is not much faster then a Q9450 of the same speed. There is a tiny speed bump with i7 due to other architectural improvements but it is'nt any significant increase from the last generation. Once you start to remove the benifits of Hyperthreading and added physical cores from computers then usually there is'nt much significance in improvements. Sure the little speed increases from improving certain components within the system add up over time but they add up too slowly and either won't meet the demmands of some people or only temporarily do so at some point far down the road. More true-speed needs to be added with those other changes is my point.

EDITED

[Sounddesigner]

nevermind

[Warp69]

Warp69, 80 instances of x-verb is far from indication of handling large project size if thats all your computer can handle. Meaning if all your effects plugins eat as much power as X-verb then a song of 80 plugins is far from enough to meet the demmands of many people out here. what about hungrier synths included? What about higher samplerates aswell? What about running them at ultra low latency? Are you going to tell me that running only 80 effects is where we need to be with computers to satisfy the needs of the industry?

Reverbs are many times heavier than many other plugins. X-Verb takes 5 times more CPU power than X-EQ (with all bands activated) - that's around 400 X-EQ's with 8 bands activated. How many X-Plates can you load on XITE? 24? Divide that number with 2 (X-Verb is way more heavier than X-Plate) then you probably have the number of X-Verbs you can load on XITE. I can run 536 Sonnox EQs (all bands activated) on my Mac Pro.

My point mainly is this; there are newer plugins out here you definitely will not be able to run 80 instances....................

And how many of those second generation plugins do you think XITE can handle? I would guess 15% of what I can do right now with my computer. And you need those second generation plugins to be available for your system. And it looks like SC is working very hard to implement VST functionality inside the Scope environment - where does that leave you regarding CPU power?

I have a benchmark that shows a Core i7 without Hyperthreading is not much faster then a Q9450 of the same speed.

Those benchmark are quite old - Intel changed the cache system (introduce 3 layer cache instead of 2 larger cache layers) in Nelahem compared to previous generation. So if you wanted maximum performance on the last generation cpu's you used the larger caches. That same program would have a lot of cache misses on Nehalem because of the smaller cache. Most newly compiled programs sees a 20%+ increase (without HT) clock for clock.

Why do you think it's a problem of stacking cores on a general cpu when you at the same time praises XITE which also have multiple cores?

But I agree - the XITE hardware is a great achievement and if you think about the size of the company it's even greater.

[Sounddesigner]

Warp69, 80 instances of x-verb is far from indication of handling large project size if thats all your computer can handle. Meaning if all your effects plugins eat as much power as X-verb then a song of 80 plugins is far from enough to meet the demmands of many people out here. what about hungrier synths included? What about higher samplerates aswell? What about running them at ultra low latency? Are you going to tell me that running only 80 effects is where we need to be with computers to satisfy the needs of the industry?

Reverbs are many times heavier than many other plugins. X-Verb takes 5 times more CPU power than X-EQ (with all bands activated) - that's around 400 X-EQ's with 8 bands activated. How many X-Plates can you load on XITE? 24? Divide that number with 2 (X-Verb is way more heavier than X-Plate) then you probably have the number of X-Verbs you can load on XITE. I can run 536 Sonnox EQs (all bands activated) on my Mac Pro.

warp69, my point is, for many like myself either now or overtime those reverbs are going to be accompanied by more power-hungry plugins not just those efficient sonnox eq's you mentioned. More power will still prove to be needed. There are many demmanding plugins of all types apart from just reverbs that many of us use. As for computer vs dsp power, even if the x-verb yields more instances on computers then xite-1, two processors will always prove superior to one. dsp card very nature is co-processor wich means more power added to computer rather then only computer for a individual. But very importantly it means you can pick and choose your effects and instruments of different categories to run from either platform for appropriate situations, wich has many benifits from lessening power amount usage of certain plugin types to staying at low latency threw-out music production. Wich bring EXTREMELY huge advantages for many of us compared to if we did'nt have our dsp's. and in xite's case another advantage is bringing great power to portability for laptop musicians who fail to get equal performance to desktop musicians from their systems. There are no 8-CORE mac pro laptops. I know you heard the saying "two heads are better then one"? Likewise with dsp's, and this co-processing is their nature with ITB Music. One example is The Native Empty 250 reverb compared to the uad emt 250. i can run about 16 instances of the native empty 250 on my Core i7 at 96khz depending on buffer-size but i can run about 21 uad emt 250 on its quad card wich is expandable to four quads for 84 instances at 96khz (too much money to accomplish this tho). A single UAD Quad is outperforming the Core i7 when it comes to many people personal needs in certain situations, and personal needs always prove more important then specs. Personal needs can also show the problems a given platform has that don't show in its specs or cherry-picking benchmarks. Those who have uad and need many emt reverbs will probably run most from the uad card and few on native especially since the native processor has a ton of other things to do. And in xite's case even if only a handfull of reverbs could run on xite those handful need to be compared to computer of the same latency amount running the reverbs, wich can't be made cause computers buffer-sizes are'nt small enough and the latency is cumulative. The true worth of xite-1 also embodies its fixed ULTRA LOW latency. The number of the native empty 250 decreases greatly at ultra low latency with native processors and this is the nature of native processors with many native plugins. when you bring a computer to ultra low latency domain most plugins majority of us own i'm sure decreases its power greatly in the ultra low domain and many simply will not work at low latency. So if that computer is several times more powerful then XITE it won't show for those of us desiring ultra low, either now or as time passes. Fixed latency will almost always prove superior to cumulative, and the ability to use both type processors will prove superior to using just one. especially since we can never have enough power but atleast with both some of us are so deeply buried in power that it will take a alot longer time to come out.


Sounddesigner wrote:
My point mainly is this; there are newer plugins out here you definitely will not be able to run 80 instances....................

QUOTE: Warp69 wrote: And how many of those second generation plugins do you think XITE can handle? I would guess 15% of what I can do right now with my computer. And you need those second generation plugins to be available for your system. And it looks like SC is working very hard to implement VST functionality inside the Scope environment - where does that leave you regarding CPU power? END QUOTE

For me the xite-1 is handling second generation plugins just fine regardless to what generation number scope plugins truly are. SCOPE synths quality rival second generation native synths sound quality just fine. Actually my personal favorites are on scope. but lets have a look at the new native ones. many of the new native synths depend heavily on extreme oversampling do to difficulty of achieving adequate fidelity and presence on that platform (harshness problems aswell imo, but thats another story), and such extreme oversampling brings difficulty with many voices far as latency goes and uses tons of processing power. So running many great sounding synths on scope still has its advantages and in many cases can prove best. Its all relative. As far as S|C allowing for the running of vst's in scope, My impression was that those vst's would show up in scope mixers but still draw their power from the computer, wich is what i'd prefer over using them on my dsp's.


Sounddesigner wrote:
I have a benchmark that shows a Core i7 without Hyperthreading is not much faster then a Q9450 of the same speed.


QUOTE: Warp69 wrote: Those benchmark are quite old - Intel changed the cache system (introduce 3 layer cache instead of 2 larger cache layers) in Nelahem compared to previous generation. So if you wanted maximum performance on the last generation cpu's you used the larger caches. That same program would have a lot of cache misses on Nehalem because of the smaller cache. Most newly compiled programs sees a 20%+ increase (without HT) clock for clock.

Why do you think it's a problem of stacking cores on a general cpu when you at the same time praises XITE which also have multiple cores?

But I agree - the XITE hardware is a great achievement and if you think about the size of the company it's even greater. END QUOTE

As for your comments on my benchmark and intels new cache system; would'nt alot of the improvements it brings not show up in realworld performance fully ATM because we the users still use a boatload of our older plugins aswell? and many developers are slow to learn to program for such architectural changes as such? would'nt a speed increase accompanying it still make better for fully seeing more power atm and added gain in longrun? I would think so but don't personally have the answer.

i'm not fully against core stacking with dsp's or computer's, i'm all for more power in what ever way it can be obtained, but i do think computers need more speed aswell due to O/S problems and tho dsp's have less speed and are stacked also the fixed ultra low latency nature some carry still allows for them to outperform computers in many situations for many of us. ultimately i want bigger dsp's aswell. I want more power out here and i think duende kind of does'nt contribute to this, and companies like SSL overestimated computers capabilities and underestimated the growing of musicians needs.. I still would love your x-verb and several other duende plugins, i just don't think the company made a good move processing power-wise, altleast not one i care for. you bring your x-verb to xite and i think i'll do better with xite + computer than duende eating from computer.

[Warp69]

One example is The Native Empty 250 reverb compared to the uad emt 250. i can run about 16 instances of the native empty 250 on my Core i7 at 96khz depending on buffer-size but i can run about 21 uad emt 250 on its quad card wich is expandable to four quads for 84 instances at 96khz (too much money to accomplish this tho). A single UAD Quad is outperforming the Core i7.....

Let us not confuse optimization with CPU power - I could create an EMT250 plugin that uses 3 of your 31369 DSPs inside XITE - would that be an indication of how powerful the XITE is?

UA hired the complete Csound team from Analog Devices - they do know how the sharcs works - what do you think would happen if Intel closed the compiler/optimization department and I hired them all for optimization of plugins?

I want more power out here and i think duende kind of does'nt contribute to this, and companies like SSL overestimated computers capabilities and underestimated the growing of musicians needs.. I still would love your x-verb and several other duende plugins, i just don't think the company made a good move processing power-wise, altleast not one i care for. you bring your x-verb to xite and i think i'll do better with xite + computer than duende eating from computer.

I don't think SSL overestimated computers capabilities - Other companies will follow very soon - just wait and see.

As stated many times before - I would love to do something for XITE - really push the hardware - releasing the forthcoming 480L plugin with extras, but it won't happen. I simply can't do anything - I don't have the right developing tools and SC is apparently not interested.

[siriusbliss]

As stated many times before - I would love to do something for XITE - really push the hardware - releasing the forthcoming 480L plugin with extras, but it won't happen. I simply can't do anything - I don't have the right developing tools and SC is apparently not interested.

So, when the Xite SDK is released, you won't be interested in advancing Flexor (or anything else like the reverbs) for the Xite environment?

I don't see SC not yet releasing the SDK as being 'apparently not interested' - unless I'm missing something.

Greg

[garyb]

As stated many times before - I would love to do something for XITE - really push the hardware - releasing the forthcoming 480L plugin with extras, but it won't happen. I simply can't do anything - I don't have the right developing tools and SC is apparently not interested.

i wouldn't bet that they aren't interested, my guess is that they just haven't really gotten to that point on a huge "to do" list...

[Warp69]

So, when the Xite SDK is released, you won't be interested in advancing Flexor (or anything else like the reverbs) for the Xite environment?

Flexor? I don't have anything to do with Flexor.

I wouldn't bet that they aren't interested, my guess is that they just haven't really gotten to that point on a huge "to do" list..

You're probably right. Maybe the solution to the missing SDK is the development of VST plugins within the Scope environment?

[braincell]

That doesn't seem likely either. They don't want other people horning in on their platform other than the few developers they are working with. I don't think the walled garden approach is really working though either for the company or end users.

[garyb]

another post based on imagination...

[siriusbliss]

another post based on imagination...

it's all so hopeless....geez

In one year...modular 4, scope 5, xite1, new plugins, upgrade deals, third party devs collabs, X-card, a 64 bit version...
oh, and NOT behaving like the old Creamware...

hmmmmm...

[netguyjoel]

follow the yellow brick road...

[dawman]

Vietnam has the highest literacy rate in the entire world. They are a communist nation. Their economy has been growing a lot while ours has been shrinking.

BBBBZZZZZZ>>>>>Wrong answer..........
http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/viet ... conomy.htm

Vietnams economy has lost growth every month until last week. And because of Holiday spending worldwide. USA's economy tanked, but has grown on a monthly basis.

Speaking of inaccuracy>>>>>>

90.3% is their rate, way behind the Deliverance guys......

world-literacy-map.gif

But again, this is a UN map, so it could be comprised so Vietnam could recieve enviromental reparations.................

Our trade imbalance has nothing to do with a conspiracy. We simply are not as intelligent or driven as other countries because we fail to properly educate our children. As long as we are blind to this, we will continue to slip.

Agreed, as the quotes above demonstrate....

[netguyjoel]

[katano]

As stated many times before - I would love to do something for XITE - really push the hardware - releasing the forthcoming 480L plugin with extras, but it won't happen. I simply can't do anything - I don't have the right developing tools and SC is apparently not interested.

Warp, don't give up, we can't live without the 480L!

BTW, how comes some of my favourite plugins like yours and the Dynatubes from Softube are all made in Denmark? There must be a coincidence How about a joint venture?

Cheers,
Roman

[Warp69]

Let us see what the future brings.

Well - Softube is located in Sweden. Softube are probably the most promising plugin company right now. Just wait for NAMM. They're are talented.