DAWs and Scope

[auricle]

Hi gang,

Last night I tried routing tracks from Ableton Live into Scope's mixer and using Scope for effects and EQing. Up to now, I've been using Scope's mixer as a 'submixer' for Scope's synths. All can can say is 'WOW!' It was like night and day. I can really hear what you guys are talking about now - using Scope for mixing is wonderful. It adds a wonderful depth and breadth to the sound. It made mixing such an enjoyable experience that I didn't go to bed until very late

I've now made the executive decision to use my DAW as a substitute 'tape machine' and use Scope for mixing and effects (unless I have native effect that is used as an insert and is integral to a sound e.g. Chorus or flanger).

My question is, for you people who do this - how do you integrate your DAWs into Scope? I'm thinking of automation or use of native plugs. I'm thinking specifically about Cubase (what I'm using at the moment with Live) and Samplitude (possibly in the future). Do you create MIDI tracks for automation info? What other tips & tricks do you have?

Thank you humbly

[garyb]

native plugs can be used in inserts, which if in a bus, can be sent out it's own output channel if you wish.

as to automation, yes, a midi track can be used to record and play back Scope automation. i usually just deal with mute and minor volume automation within the sequencer itself. aux send automation is pretty easily handled with the sequencer's track automation and then the aux gets it's own output into Scope. i find that it's much easier to do minor adjustments in volume and mutes in the arrange window, as opposed to the track automation, but whatever works....

[Jah Servant]

I do pretty much the same a Gary, there is some automation in Cubase and there are a couple delays I like to use that get a nice sound for dub/reggae so I use those and occasionally a few other plugs, then I pretty much do the major stuff in scope recorded to a midi track in cubase. Generally if I am using a compressor on a track in Scope then I'll adjust that track volume in scope, eg. backing vocals, if a track has no compression but needs some adjustment I'll probably just do it in cubase, this way the compression doesn't change.

[auricle]

Thanks for the tips, guys.

[voidar]

If you're a purist, you shouldn't even process or move a fader in the DAW. Negative fader will i.e. truncate the audio data pre Scope.
You can test this yourself with Schwa's Bitter VST and an ASIO thru-loop using Live's hardware insert. Put Bitter at pre and post HW-insert. Move input fader. Compare.

What you can do is send everything on it's own track into the Scope environment through ASIO, then assign MIDI CC's to the various devices (i.e. mixer). Max 128 CC per device. Then automate MIDI CC via the DAW.

It's a tedious process which is why I don't really bother anymore, though I am sometimes tempted. Perhaps for clients, but as on killing my personal creativity, it is mostly 100% effective.

If you f**k up your mixer layout at start-up and then decide to add more tracks, you can end up with a really cluttered mixer, and you'll be cross-eyed trying to locate the right fader with your mouse.
Also you'll run into phase problems due to micro delays caused by the DSP. I mean, I can't get the S|C Chorus/Delay to sound right as an aux insert (STM 2448) without having to shift it either back (which means everything must be shifted) or forth in time. And don't necessarily expect this to be recalled on your next startup due to DSP-distrubution changes.
Try the "Stereo Enhancement" preset on dist-guitars and you will hear what I mean; the effect phases out the sound instead of adding too it; which when working in phase is a very cool effect. Wall-of-sound s**t.

Anyway, use your ears .

BTW. Are the any Scope effects you particulary used/liked?

[auricle]

Hi voidar,

Thanks for the great reply.

That's what I did yesterday. I set all of Live's faders to 0db and used Scope's mixer purely. I'd like to work this way if possible. To be honest I don't do a lot of mixer automation as I'm a sort of set a level and leave it kind of guy - except for fade-ins and outs. What I would like to do though is map my controller to Scope's mixer through the DAW in case I want to record any movements. I need to work out how to do that.

It's interesting what you say about the DSP delays. I never noticed that - but then I only used reverbs and delays. If I use a specific 'modulation' effect it would probably be inserted in the DAW's mixer either as a native plugin or XTC. Or more likely built in the synth itself (I'm a keyboard player and don't use guitars). It's all still very new to me so I'll be experimenting for quite a while yet.

It's all too new for me to have found favourite effects. I'll let you know when I have

[spacef]

>>> Max 128 CC

Max = 119 CC (in Scope at least) (including CC64 which is assignable except in synths where it should be reserved to "hold" for sustain-pedals).

[garyb]

as to minor phase issues, it really depends on the material whether or not those issues are real or not. with hardware, such minor phase problems are just part of life with no way to compensate. every digital hardware effect has micro delays from ad and da conversions and the lengths of cables also add slight delays, leading to ever so slight phase problems. no hardware mixer is 100% phase accurate across all inputs, but when everything is combined, it's just not a problem. a sandwich of 10 kick drums mght start to be trouble, but then all the kicks could be submixed in the host if necessary...

in all things, trust your ears. if it sounds better, it IS better.

[siriusbliss]

Using Samplitude here:
All MIDI automation is done in Samplitude.
Samp. mixer levels are flat, and I use Scope mixers to reach level (I'm also a leave it and forget it kinda guy).
I do NOT use XTC mode, as I prefer to just route out to Scope via Samplitude's 'external' hardware routing insert, and let Samplitude ping for the latency delay, which is usually amazingly small. I do this approach to avoid phasing and latency issues.

I HAVE been automating in Samplitude to some degree, but am now looking at more directly integrating my Yamaha 01V96V2 mixer with Scopes mixers, and then perhaps record the automation in parallel (if I can get it to work).

I also occasionally use Live, and much prefer Scope over using Live's setup.

Greg

[voidar]

auricle:
<What I would like to do though is map my controller to Scope's mixer through the DAW in case I want to record any movements. I need to work out how to do that.>

I think this is best achieved hooking your controller to Sequencer MIDI Dest and mixer to Sequencer MIDI Source. Have DAW thru-put MIDI. There will be some additional MIDI delay though.

greg:

As of micro delays. I am aware of this inherited feature of realtime systems, and I do agree that sometimes this adds beneficially to a mix. But regarding this spesific chorus/delay, it certainly does not. This given trick is something I picked up from a console/hardware guy where he would run this digital hardware box on an aux for guitars and the guitars would
literally project "outside" the speakers. Great effect. Had the phase relationship been different though this would not be so.

Perhaps if you add the latencies of the AD/DA with the DSP (like a regular hardware box) the phase would be ideal. I've been pundering this as I am looking into getting a A&H Zed R16 digitally integrated analog mixer.

Anyway, if I use a hardware insert ping type plugin like that in Samplitude (and REAPER), the phase is relationship becomes accurate. Though then I am "stuck" with the DAW mixer.

I used to be a leave-it-and-forget-it kinda guy, but I've come to appreciate how minor automation can give dynamics to a mix, more so than just the statick approach of a dynamics processors. Like some times a client will ask for more or less snare on a given part of a track, even though it wasn't tracket that way, but you do your best.

siriusbliss:

If you route out to Scope; how is the external hardware routing insert necessary? Like, do you have the direct out of the Scope mixer looped back to Samp to advance/delay a track prior to Scope?

[auricle]

There's some absolutely golden advice here on this thread.

The beauty is there's so many different ways to do things - we're not just stuck with using the DAW's mixer. It's a damn shame that Scope only responds to MIDI messages - it would be great if it could respond to host automation somehow. I don't know if this is possible or not. If not, then OSC would be great for more control and resolution - I'm sure the guys at SC have plans somewhere to work with this.

As someone mentioned above, you could set up auxiliaries on the DAW's mixer (the track level can still be controlled in Scope) going to an effect in Scope. This would allow you to easily automate effect send levels in the DAW.

<pipe dream>It would be great if Sonic Core could make their own DAW that directly integrates with Scope - or at least work in partnership with another company that would make one for them</pipe dream>

[auricle]

>>> Max 128 CC

Max = 119 CC (in Scope at least) (including CC64 which is assignable except in synths where it should be reserved to "hold" for sustain-pedals).

\

But isn't that per MIDI channel? If mixer automation had it's own sequencer MIDI port then that would make 1904 CC (199 multiplied by 16) - or am I missing something?

[katano]

Also you'll run into phase problems due to micro delays caused by the DSP. I mean, I can't get the S|C Chorus/Delay to sound right as an aux insert (STM 2448) without having to shift it either back (which means everything must be shifted) or forth in time. And don't necessarily expect this to be recalled on your next startup due to DSP-distrubution changes.

Voidar,

you're talking about the PCI cards, aren't you? I think those phase issues are no longer a problem or at least it's less significant with Xite-1, I didn't recognise any problems with the STM 2448 X on Xite-1 and the Chorus/Delay so far...

Cheers,
Roman

[dawman]

Personally I have times when I want Phasing to occur. Since we don't have that issue with the newer ADP's I have to use devices that change the sample times like a mono to stereo device from Jah Servant called M2S, and the old Assaf device called Phase Fix.
I like my SE-1 Analog synth to split out to 2 Mono channels on a SpaceF mixer so I can do unique LFO Mods. This combined w/ the sample time edit devices give the Bass parts a unique seperate type of sound. Very similar to ADT techniques used on vocals.

[pollux]

>>> Max 128 CC

Max = 119 CC (in Scope at least) (including CC64 which is assignable except in synths where it should be reserved to "hold" for sustain-pedals).

\

But isn't that per MIDI channel? If mixer automation had it's own sequencer MIDI port then that would make 1904 CC (199 multiplied by 16) - or am I missing something?

Scope mixers can only respond to a single MIDI channel, excepting Wolf's mixers (16 channels w/ pitch bend for faders and aux sends), and I think some of the SpaceF mixers which can handle two MIDI channels

[auricle]

>>> Max 128 CC

Max = 119 CC (in Scope at least) (including CC64 which is assignable except in synths where it should be reserved to "hold" for sustain-pedals).

\

But isn't that per MIDI channel? If mixer automation had it's own sequencer MIDI port then that would make 1904 CC (199 multiplied by 16) - or am I missing something?

Scope mixers can only respond to a single MIDI channel, excepting Wolf's mixers (16 channels w/ pitch bend for faders and aux sends), and I think some of the SpaceF mixers which can handle two MIDI channels

Daaaamn!!

[voidar]

katano:

Yup, I'm on the PCI. I'm a bit torn between a XITE and a Zed R16 really. The later will integrate while the XITE will replace. Also there is the danger of S|C dropping support of their ancient PCI at a critical stage early down the road.

Good to hear, but I wouldn't know unless I test it myself.
Another factor to consider is the stereo aux performance I get using hardware inserts from the DAW vs. mono send aux of the STM's. Chorus/Delay being a full stereo device fill perform different when fed from a true stereo source vs. a mono-sum source. Of course, the later relates to a hardware console and shouldn't be a problem.

A thing I haven't testes is loading the effect internally vs. externally in the mixer.

auricle:

I think you will be fine with 119 CC if you gradually build your automation needs. This workflow kills my creative vibe though.
If built from the ground up to accept multiple MIDI ch., then by all means you will have 119x16 CC. The stock mixers are not.

Personally I would do fade ins and outs post mix. Preferably in an editor.

It would be a waste of resources for S|C to build and compete with the vast majority of the available DAWs. What they need is just better integration.
It seems like they are working on this. I envision being able to operate the routing window while simultaniously XTC mode operation. In the future perhaps, but not in v5.0.

[spacef]

Hi Auricle!
Yep, 119 midi CC per Midi Channel is the right way to put it.


Multitimbral devices (several midi Channels) are not the rule in Scope but they exist: SpaceF and Wolf Audio have taken that path.
You will see on FP Mixers that the Insert Effects have their own midi channels (119 for the main surface + 119 for the inserts, ie 238 CC in total on 2 midi channels): and 119 CC is more than enough to control an infinite number of Eqs in an infinite number of channel: how? let me explain:

Principle:
- When you assign a CC that is already assigned to another parameter, then this other parameter becomes unassigned, and the CC is assigned to the new parameter.

- So imagine I assign 24 or 32 CC to an Eq insert: I save a midi preset of this Eq so this preset is in the Eq preset list (and I save the preset list to disk, so it is available to me in the future).
- Now load the same Eq in several channels of a mixer
- When you want to control an Eq, you open its preset list and select the midi preset that you just saved: CCs will be assigned to this EQ and Unassigned from where it was assigned before.
- It means that you can control one EQ at a time, but an infinite number of them.

- If i want to control Eq of channel 5, I slect the midi preset and CC will beassigned to this EQ and unassigned from other EQS
- then you do the same for other Eqs that you want to control etc etc...
- In fact its like you "passed" the CC of an effect to another effect...

You see what I mean ?

- For this technic to work well, you should not only save a midi preset, but also a normal preset for the Eqs you want to control: that way you make sure that parameters are correct (Midi CC presets can sometime send a value, and this is not something wanted for Eqs especially where you want everything to be precise.
The technic is not perfect, but takes 0 ressources inside the device because it uses Scope/Xite core CC functions and nothing else.

So the steps to do are:
- save a normal preset for the Eq you want to assign
- load the midi CC preset to assign CCs (and to unassign them from wherever they are already assigned if that's the case)
- reload the normal preset that you just saved so parameters are put back right in case they were not.

Ok it can be tedious, those 3 steps, it is true, but in the same time, it is the only way to free yourself from CC limit and midi channel limit as this technic allows hardware control over a quasi-infinite number of devices whith only a small number of CC...

I know it is not perfect and I try to make it better....
I am trying to perfect CC assignments for mixers: i know several technics, some take DSPs (true multitimbral devices with per-channel-CC like on SpaceF Multi-Synth or Wolf Mixers) and other take zero ressources which take advantage of Scope core functions. The latter is much more difficult to achieve but that's the direction I try to go.

[spacef]

ps; this technic should work on STM mixers too (eventhough, don'task me too much, I haven't used them since...2002 or 2003

[auricle]

Hi Mehdi,

Thanks for that reply and the great tip! To be honest, I haven't even looked at MIDI presets yet as I'm still new to the whole thing but now I'm looking at MIDI automation I'll dig deeper.

Just for some info - Ralph told me that they are going to implement better DAW integration. They are looking at 14bit MIDI and OSC control but it will take some time to implement. The good news is that it will be implemented one day.