Hurricane Katrina

narly · Post by **narly** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:02 pm

I just thought of a title for a piece I've been working on:

"Dirge of the Chronically Dissatisfied and Irate"

(It has no intro or verses per-se, just a hollow, obnoxious chorus that keeps repeating and never really changes or fades out)

[ This Message was edited by: narly on 2005-09-04 17:08 ]

Post by **garyb** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:46 pm

well it's obvious that you don't care either. welcome to hell, it can only get worse.....

if you had family there, you'd be feeling much differently....
to add to the unpleasant chorus:
http://neworleans.indymedia.org/news/2005/09/3941.php

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-09-04 17:55 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:55 pm

Narly - Still pissed about your Social Security statement huh?

By the way, I'm not dissatisfied in any conventional sense - although I don't have luxuries like owning my own house/apartment or car, I'm content, even though the government screws a hell of a lot of money out of me for tax. I know I'm luckier than a lot of other people.

However, just because I'm okay doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and marvel at how fair the world is. There is crazy injustice out there, and it is driven by relentless pursuit of profits at any cost (this sounds paradoxical and it is), and a system that's designed to concentrate wealth within a very small elite, while everyone else suffers.

I'm not saying capitalism is necessarily bad. But extreme capitalism is just as bad as extreme socialism or extreme anything.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-04 17:55 ]

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 4:56 pm

On 2005-09-04 17:02, narly wrote:
I just thought of a title for a piece I've been working on:

"Dirge of the Chronically Dissatisfied and Irate"

(It has no intro or verses per-se, just a hollow, obnoxious chorus that keeps repeating and never really changes or fades out)

[ This Message was edited by: narly on 2005-09-04 17:08 ]

Maybe you could dedicate it to the people who are constantly whining that people are discussing things they don't want discussed, they are too stupid to know what they're talking about, it's all futile and it's a waste of time and getting us nowhere, etc.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:02 pm

Another thing I've noticed is the right-wing nutnecks are claiming that New Orleans deserved it because it was a city of sin.

I find this attitude from self-professed 'Christians' to be bizarre. In the Bible, loving and helping thy neighbour is shown to be a hell of a lot more important than getting pissed off about homosexuals, benefit freeloaders, abortion and sex before marriage.

Personally I believe in God but I think these right-wing Christians are money-chasing frauds.

narly · Post by **narly** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:33 pm

On 2005-09-04 17:46, garyb wrote:
well it's obvious that you don't care either. welcome to hell, it can only get worse.....

if you had family there, you'd be feeling much differently....

Tell me you're kidding with that.

Pretty indecent to presume what I have in my heart.

Post by **garyb** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:35 pm

maybe my mistake, it's just that you seem to be saying that it's wrong to call this situation an outrage.

narly · Post by **narly** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:17 pm

Of course it's horrible, I just think it's a little premature to choose who's neck should be in the noose for it...and whether that will help anything in the long run (other than the politicians and the media).

Frankly, we weren't there to witness so we don't know (a lesson I work with my children on occaision). I personally don't get worked up about what the cable-news media reports since, as usual, they're exploiting and sensationalizing it for the sake of ratings. I do see the horrible conditions, the devastation, the loss.

It's horrible. An outrage.

However, for example, if I hear that a helicopter ruined a food drop (inept minions of the evil GWB) and then used their weapons to warn off some people approaching it, I'm not going to pass judgement and become outraged unless (1) I'm omnicient and know exactly what those persons were thinking and the exact protocol the military is required to follow or (2) I find out that information from a reliable source. Until then, I have to assume the actions taken were for specific reasons unknown to me at this moment, because I don't know everything.

To 'rez, Len, Gary, et. al. If your of a mind at this moment that GWB is completely responsible, you're entitled. I claim a share to the same entitlement and am exercising it, thanks.

Trust in God. God works in your life through people. Trust your fellow humans.

(BTW; last I checked, that doesn't make me a Christian zealot).

Post by **garyb** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:43 pm

gwb is NOT the cause of all this mess. he has played a starring role, but he is not the prime motivating force. eugenics(THE breeding program of the elite, whatever/whomever they are)is a known FACT. many books, programs and governments(for example, fascist nazi germany) have been organized based on it. the problem is systematic and the problem remains in force as long as people find these situations acceptable.

by their fruits, ye shall know them.

needless tragedy and death shows the fruits of the tree known as devils.

if you think that "god works through people" mmeans that god has ordained this, you may find yourself worshipping devils. god may have allowed it or even made the world so that the behavior that people have shown leads to this type of destruction, but if that is so, the YOU and YOURS had better prepare, for you are as worthy of devastation and neglect as ANY in new orleans.

if you mean that everything will turn out o.k., i agree, with the stipulation that this world is but an illusion, anyway. this makes the agony that at least 250,000 people are experiencing no less agonizing , however. i agree that blaming won't help, but there are soldiers there not helping and not allowing help, so what then?

where is the love? don't talk about gunmen because that is laughable. the whole city isn't shooting. 249,900 of them want to be helped. i don't always agree with canye west or like his music, but his comments were right on target. most of those trapped are black. most of them are dirt poor. most of them will die through inaction.

Post by **hubird** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:58 pm

On 2005-09-04 19:17, narly wrote:
However, for example, if I hear that a helicopter ruined a food drop (inept minions of the evil GWB) and then used their weapons to warn off some people approaching it, I'm not going to pass judgement and become outraged

so, is there anything in the world that could justify this crew behaviour?

[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2005-09-04 20:00 ]

narly · Post by **narly** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:59 pm

I meant that there are people who are doing good right now. Volunteers, soldiers, the victims themselves to each other, etc. And that there will always be someone there when disaster strikes. I don't believe that these things would happen if we lived in a Godless world.

I always understood that there was minimal gunfire; not rampant - my point on this is that we should expect that unarmed red-cross or other civi aid workers will not be rushing into an area which was potentially live. Even 10 shooters could hold up things for a good while for a large number of those needing assistance. The helicopter air-lifts for example. 1 shot should be enough to call that off until the site is secured. The risk to all is too great without security. Secure it promptly, yes. No reason not to.

Have a peaceful week...

Liquid Len · Post by **Liquid Len** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:19 pm

To 'rez, Len, Gary, et. al. If your of a mind at this moment that GWB is completely responsible, you're entitled. I claim a share to the same entitlement and am exercising it, thanks.

I have repeatedly said I don't consider GWB "completely responsible" not only for the handling of this incident, but a lot of problems in the world that are blamed on US policy (whether fairly or not). I think (1) the system is too complicated for any one person to take too much credit, (2) that GWB is a glorified cue-card reader for the people who paid for his ascendancy into a position of power, just like Clinton before him, and (3) that everyone is to a certain extent responsible for the problems that occur in the world, you can spread the blame around quite a bit.

Trust in God. God works in your life through people. Trust your fellow humans.

I agree with you there. Things would be hopeless if you couldn't do this.

[ This Message was edited by: Liquid Len on 2005-09-04 21:05 ]

Post by **garyb** » Sun Sep 04, 2005 10:40 pm

On 2005-09-04 19:59, narly wrote:
I meant that there are people who are doing good right now. Volunteers, soldiers, the victims themselves to each other, etc. And that there will always be someone there when disaster strikes. I don't believe that these things would happen if we lived in a Godless world.

I always understood that there was minimal gunfire; not rampant - my point on this is that we should expect that unarmed red-cross or other civi aid workers will not be rushing into an area which was potentially live. Even 10 shooters could hold up things for a good while for a large number of those needing assistance. The helicopter air-lifts for example. 1 shot should be enough to call that off until the site is secured. The risk to all is too great without security. Secure it promptly, yes. No reason not to.

Have a peaceful week...

narly, i agree.
about the danger to aid workers though, that's what a heavily armed national guard is for. no excuses for not helping humans in such dire need.

*edit*
it seems that significant aid is finally coming to n.o.. rant over, thanks for the indulgence.

[ This Message was edited by: garyb on 2005-09-05 02:08 ]

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:18 am

Yeah, the gangsters' bullets obviously ran out. Anyway I'm glad that help is coming. Once everyone is safe, I hope the consequences of this sorry affair hit the Bush administration hard.

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:26 am

Narly - I think there's more to the creator's masterplan than just sitting about getting fat thinking everything is going to be okay as He has everyone's best interests at heart.

If this was the case there would be absolutely no motivation to do diddly squat in life.

Sometimes we need to fight for our own good. I have no doubt that all this is God's doing but IMHO He would want us to question why people are being meaninglessly killed by man-made factors - the actual high winds of the hurricane did not directly kill many but the shoddy human relief operation did.

There are profoundly evil forces in power at the moment and if you want me to just sit back and take it because it's 'God's will' then you're sadly mistaken.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-05 02:27 ]

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:02 am

krizrox wrote:
This finger pointing and looking for a government scapegoat - sad sad sad. Do humanity a favor - donate a few bucks to the Red Cross or any organization that helps the sick and needy. Do something positive with your lives instead of wasting it here with such dribble.

Wow man, that's scary stuff. So...the government shouldn't have any responsibility to get aid to these people, it should all be handled by independant charities? I pay quite a lot of taxes to my government, and I'm sure Americans do the same. Don't you think any of that money should be invested in getting disaster aid to the people?

Royston

darkrezin · Post by **darkrezin** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:05 am

It's not even as if there was a lack of aid forthcoming right from the get-go. Lest anyone forget what actually happened after the Bush administration gets their inevitable PR spin machine into action in order to erase this from history:

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments

Here's an excerpt for people unwilling to read (God knows I've posted a lot of links here which people just ignore):

"I want to give you one last story and I’ll shut up and let you tell me whatever you want to tell me. The guy who runs this building I’m in, Emergency Management, he’s responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” and he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you.” Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody’s coming to get us. Nobody’s coming to get us."

Before thinking about stupid political sympathies for right or left, just imagine that it was your own family involved in this thing...

And to people who keep saying to shut up and donate - I've already donated, several days ago (even though as Royston said it really should not be necessary in the richest country in the world). However that is not going to stop me from asking questions about apparently murderous tactics by the government.

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-05 03:07 ]

[ This Message was edited by: darkrezin on 2005-09-05 03:10 ]

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:14 am

narly wrote:
Criticizm is easy, dude. Action is hard, but that's what's required.

That's why there's so much criticism being levelled; the lack of action on the part of the administration. That was indeed what was required! It's happening now, but (IMO) the political damage has been done. Time will tell how much...

Royston

Counterparts · Post by **Counterparts** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 2:23 am

There was an eerily prophetic piece on BBC2's "Newsnight" program the other day.

It was a report (produced by the American administration) about the three most likely possible disasters which could affect modern day America.

#1 was a hurricane hitting New Orleans - this has now happened.

#2 was a major terrorist attack - this too has now happened.

#3 was a major earthquake hitting San Fransisco...

valis · Post by **valis** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 3:12 am

The Bush government has set up something rather fiendishly clever. The next time anything happens - be it a natural disaster, riots, anti-war protest or terrorist attack - the whole population of the USA are going to cheer as the death squads move in. All they have to do to justify spraying innocent people with bullets is to plant a few agent provocateurs in the crowd and sacrifice a few soldiers. A police state is so much easier to sustain if you have the backing of the people who are under a mass hallucination. You can't get anything this surreal on the weirdest acid trip.

This is an offshore article about a recent shooting in the disaster area:
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co ... 77,00.html

Now here's an "Associated Press" article about the same incident from a day or so ago:

NEW ORLEANS - Police shot eight people carrying guns on a New Orleans bridge Sunday, killing five or six, a deputy chief said. A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal.

The contractors were walking across a bridge on their way to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain to fix the 17th Street Canal, said John Hall, a spokesman for the Corps.

Earlier Sunday, New Orleans Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley said police shot at eight people, killing five or six.
The shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, which spans a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain and the Mississippi River.

Now compare that with the current version of the AP article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050904/ap_ ... otings_hk1

So something happened involving police and contractors. Who shot at the contractors? Who was killed? Its likely the story will get muddled with a bit more too, and all we'll have to go on again is conjecture and personal prejudice (whichever way that leans). One would like to believe that its probably just a result of the chaos that is going on there right now...

However once again the story is starting to unfold that our government is 'poorly organized' and 'underinformed' (by Intel?) to meet the current disaster. I'm not generally given to radicalism but this particular excuse is starting to sound rather familiar.

On 2005-09-04 18:33, narly wrote:
On 2005-09-04 17:46, garyb wrote:
well it's obvious that you don't care either. welcome to hell, it can only get worse.....
if you had family there, you'd be feeling much differently....

Tell me you're kidding with that.
Pretty indecent to presume what I have in my heart.

Perhaps he misspoke about your heart, this is a rather heated subject at the moment. However even if you don't have family there, some do. Its hard to not be compassionate.

On 2005-09-05 03:05, darkrezin wrote:
It's not even as if there was a lack of aid forthcoming right from the get-go. Lest anyone forget what actually happened after the Bush administration gets their inevitable PR spin machine into action in order to erase this from history:

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments

Here's an excerpt for people unwilling to read (God knows I've posted a lot of links here which people just ignore):

"I want to give you one last story and I’ll shut up and let you tell me whatever you want to tell me. The guy who runs this building I’m in, Emergency Management, he’s responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” and he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you.” Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody’s coming to get us. Nobody’s coming to get us."

Here's the full video clip (Windows media only sorry.) Watch it to the end:
http://videos.informationclearinghouse. ... ishMTP.wmv

The FEMA thing interested me, since that's been going already in the media. Arguing that FEMA was reduced in power too much is a win-able argument, but in this post-Patriot act (and Patriot act II!) country I can't help but wonder at the motivations of those who immediately identify FEMA as the single point of failure, and hence wonder offhand if he's acting. So on one hand his breakdown was convincing (I definately reacted emotionally) and I beleive that he's really affected by the tragedy his friend has undergone as well as the greater tragedy. Its still sad that I have to even partially distrust news coverage of something that should be a-political and completely unconnected to the other travesties that the US has seen (and unleashed) over the last few years. Thankfully that wasn't on fox.

Don't get me wrong, certainly FEMA definately needs to be enabled to do more next time, but the tragedy will be twofold if our current government again exploits this situation for its own purposes---FEMA-related or otherwise (yea as if).

Now my reaction to the current disaster is certainly based on what I get through the media and the blogs (and I don't watch much tv here to be honest), but I also have dim recollections of going through 2 hurricanes when I lived down south for a while (just next to Biloxi actually). The more severe of the two was nothing like this, but it destroyed a large part of my home and there was still massive damage. Roads were flooded and completely unpassable for any civilian traffic. Highway 90 was under the Gulf of Mexico for a day and a half to two days (from my recollection.) And yet the storm ended shortly before dawn for us, and the National Guard was there by the evening and Martial Law had already been declared in the area to prevent looting in absence of civilian population. I certainly am glad I was there then and not now, and I feel very badly for those who have lost loved ones (or even property as ephemeral as it may be).

[ This Message was edited by: valis on 2005-09-05 04:23 ]